Change of Attitude of Greek Cypriots??

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 15:42

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/news_read.asp?id=1846

dav88



Joined: 01/08/2008
Posts: 605

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 16:06

Hmm that sure is interesting after having just come across this, http://cyprus-forum.com/cyprus26267.html

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 16:30

500 hundred people?

What age groups were questioned?

What area in the South was the poll taken?

How was the poll conducted? in the streets? knocking on doors or just canvassing friends and family?

The results are confusing to say the least.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 16:55

Confusing AJ?



Is that because they don't fit in with many peoples beliefs?



If you put the companies name into google it will bring up more information on them.



Perhaps if you want to know the answers to your questions reference the poll you could put them to the company who conducted it.



Obviously parts of the poll have been conducted before as the results are compared with previous years and the newspapers comments kind of make sense due the changes of political leadership in the south

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 16:58

Website under construction?

Cannot find any meaningful info about the research company that carried out the poll.

All I would say is the only meaningful 'poll' will be the referendum's (referendi?) held after a solution has been agreed and put to the people of the ROC and the TRNC.

AJ

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 17:03

Stubs

So you think 500 people is representative of the populace in the ROC?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 17:23

Stubs

Do you believe the poll?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 17:37

Stubs

Sorry you decided to log off, perhaps we can continue this debate when you log on again.

Enjoy your evening.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 18:21

Sorry AJ



The bloody school run gets in the way of life on cyprus44



There has been a noticable change in the south based press and their opinions which of course do influence ordinary citizens.



In terms of a referendum in my opinion the GC's have kind of backed themselves into a corner. When Christofias goes to the GC's he has to say that this is the best they will achieve and if they "no" again the chances of there being a third UN brokered agreement are slim. Of course the TC's also have to vote "yes" too.



During the failed Annan plan Papadopolous was voted into office when the negotiations of the A-plan were already significantly underway and he urged his people for the OXI vote telling them a better deal would be forthcoming. GC's too are not daft and they also know that this may be their last chance at some sort of unification or division is almost inevitable.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 19:01

Thanks for getting back to me Stubs but I think we have deviated a little bit from what we were originally discussing. I have no confidence in 'ten bit' organisations that are paid to carry out survey's by someone or some organisation that has a vested interest in the result. And if the basis on which the survey is undertaken is not available in the public domain then I smell a rat. As an aside with reference to the Annan plan and Papadopolous convincing his country to vote oxi he was until the last moment telling his country to vote yes (sorry don't know the GC word and obviously the GC's don't either) right up until his 'speech to the nation' where he cried crocodile tears and pleaded for the no vote.

Anyway I would still like you to answer my questions posed in messages 6 & 7.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 19:48

AJ



Newspapers have companies carrying out surveys the world over AJ. It happens in the north and the south also.



It is really funny is that the results of the census that the TRNC government have only ever been partially released and that was 3 years ago. Does that mix in with the "ten bit" organisation category ;-)



As for people having a vested interest how many ex-pats come on bbs and do spread anti GC nonsense instead of perhaps taking a pro TC view? These people have a vested interest yet have no say in any potential solution. Remember the one member who claimed that his land was "legally exchanged"



Its the same pole which has been going on a few years and the comparing the results and what has been written in the GC press over the same time there may actually be some credibility to it.



Maybe if some people actually spent some time with proper GC's you will get a better answer to that question.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 19:53

Stubs

So I take it you cant answer my two (easy) questions with a straight yes or no then? They are not trick questions by the way but simple questions that require simple answers.

AJ

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 20:05

Stubs

As another aside whilst I await your 2 simple answers to my two simple questions and I quote: 'Maybe if some people actually spent some time with proper GC's'



Are you inferring that there are more than one type of Greek Cypriot? i.e. 'proper GC's' and non proper?

I have spent time with GC's but now I don't really know whether they were the right ones or not.

Is it you that is confused or is it me?

AJ

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 20:10

stubs



if you want to kid yourself ,go ahead ,but please .



go over to the south and you will see EOKA plastered all over the place ,you will see posters



with the north of cyprus dripping with blood,cross over the borders and you will see pictures of



missing people allegedly murdered by the turkish .And lets not even get into embargo,s .



changed attitudes , are you sure.



musin



long live the kktc

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 20:19

musin

How are you my friend?

I despair of people that cannot answer simple questions with simple answers but I know Stubs is a busy person and that may be the reason.

Take care musin

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 20:30

Sorry stubs I know you are a busy person and you have logged off again, perhaps we can resume when you next log on and maybe it will give you time to think about the answers to my two simple questions. Enjoy your evening.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:08

AJ



I do have a life outside this board.



As for answering your questions I have already done so. It is you who dont answer questions on other threads. If you dont like or understand the answers then its not really my problem.



I noticed you didnt make any comment on the census results or lack of. Take it you agree with that sentiment then?



If you are questioning the pole and the persons poled contact the company who conducted the poll. I am not privy to the information you are asking for.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:12

Musin



These things you say are "hardly plastered all over the place". That was covered on another thread and only one person seen the poster which they reported on here. That same person also claims that there is no mosques in the south either ;-)



Dont you remember the graffitti in UK cities in the 70's. The rascists ones about ethnic minorities? Does that make everyone who lived in that city a rascist????

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:16

Stubs

I can answer the question you have asked of me and that is I do not know enough about the subject matter to comment so why would I answer? At least I am honest and straight to the point.

Why do you find it so hard to answer yes or no to the two questions I asked of you, you can skirt around the questions as much as you want but and if you believe what you have posted then have the courage of your convictions.

AJ

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:23

stubs,



why is it so important that greek cypriots adopt either attitude "a" or attitude "b"?



it would be interesting to know the real reason why this seems to fascinate you:



after all neither of us are cypriots, lost out, or particularly wish to opress anyone



I think the cypriots will do what they want to do, or not want as the case may be



...quite irrespective of any postings on "cyprus 44"

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:24

There is a well known saying and it is "a leopard never changes its spots" this applies here very much

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:25

stubs



you are only fooling yourself , go on to you tube type in cyprus problem and view.



aj



hope you are well.





musin



long live the kktc

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:30

Stubs



Lay low, a new code of practice seems to be in place, no agitating the 'Mods'! My poll of one (me) is that the Turkish army should head South and finish off the job they started in '74 properly and successfully this time around!



Richard

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:43

Do you have enough shells to assist them Richard, or will you need to place an order with bazookas'r'us ???

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:44

Brins

'My poll of one (me) is that the Turkish army should head South and finish off the job they started in '74 properly and successfully this time around!'



It should have happened in 74 and that would have sorted it for good. Would have solved a lot of problems.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:52

AJ



With respect



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/22194.asp



Clearly you dont answer questions read that thread adn in particular from around the 140 odd msgs until the end of the thread.



The answers to the questions you asked are not as simple as a yes or no like you have tried to protray.



If you have questions reference how the pole was conducted ask the people who conducted it.



I only posted the link and the title of the thread was a question ?????

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 21:57

Stubs

Come on lets get this out of the way, a simple yes or no to the two questions I posed to you in messages 6 & 7

Are you man or mouse? Oh by the way you have not answered the questions you have just skirted around the issues.

AJ

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:01

Musin



I can go on to youtube and download a sleeping guy in a deckchair being fired by elastic into the neighbours garden.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iREE0xd6dfo&feature=related



What was your point?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:02

stubs



you have posted what seems to me a statement ,however you say you are asking a question.



maybe you are as confused as i am.



musin



long live the kktc

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:05

AJ



Just trying to keep the thread on topic with reference to 'polls' though mine being just a single 'short straw' one! And no, I cannot provide a photo of myself as I still have to remain undercover, though I'm a little worried about the Turkish army's satellite which is now in a fixed position in the night sky over my apartment! Do you think they're still wondering whether I'm friend or foe?!



Paul



Might need a clandestine shipment from your part of the World to keep ordnance levels secure!



Richard

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:11

I did answer the question AJ



For the avoidance of doubt.



In my opinion there may be an element of realism to the poll. For many years the GC population believed what Papadopolous told them. He led them up the garden path by making saying that all GC's would be able to go back to their homelands, the Turks would leave for ever etc etc. With the poll there is a consistency with that in the results 2003, 2007 and 2008. Even if you read the readers letters sections and others in the south based Cyprus Mail there is nowhere near as much "Turk bashing" as there was.



There is not as much anti-Turkish press in the south based newspapers as there was then, could this also represent a gradual change in feeling with the GC community?



It was not as simple as a yes or no answer.



You can now feel free to go back and answer my questions if you so wish.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:14

Musin



If you give me a clue as to what part you are referring to I'll clarify

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:18

stubs message 31 etc etc:



questions, questions, questions:



for me, two turkish army divisions put these "uncertainties" into their appropriate context:



"so many questions, so little compromise"



time to get very drunk I fear...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:18

Dear AJ,



I am shocked to hear you "push" for answers to YOUR questions but you SO often "forget" to answer them - as Stubs - points out ...

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:25

AJ



The poll was carried out by Greek Cypriots if you follow this link you can contact them direct to ask them any questions regarding the poll. Would be interesting to see you post the answers to the questions you ask them here



http://directory.esomar.org/Cyprus/r1426_NOVERNA-Ltd.php



Putting their name into a search engine came up with that.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:28

I think we all know the reasons why AJ & DC don`t want the cyprus problem solved!!!!

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 22:28

that's my boy mmmmmm....stir it up.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 23:06

Hi Patrick



>>that's my boy mmmmmm....stir it up.<<



NO.. this is a fair point to make to AJ... it has nought to do with board running affairs.. it has happened re debates on CY

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/09/2009 23:41

Stubs



'In my opinion there may be an element of realism to the poll'

So I take that as a yes to my questions posted in 6 and 7.

You really are hard work. All i ever wanted was a yes or a no to my questions. Are my assumptions correct?

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 00:13

AJ



Please re-read the whole answer, it is not as simple as a yes or no as I explained.



Feel free to answer the questions put to you when ever you want.



Do you now intend contacting the company who conducted the poll? Ive given you the link to their contact details

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 00:23

Stubs



'Do you now intend contacting the company who conducted the poll? Ive given you the link to their contact details'



I guess you have already done that just to make sure the information you posted in message 1 was valid?

'Website still under construction' yep as I thought a '10 bit outfit'

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 00:53

AJ



Why would I contact them to ask them YOUR questions?



The information I posted in msg 1 was not a direct link to them or indeed the GC based newspaper for whom the poll was conducted on behalf of.



To get their contact details I just put it into a search engine. Now you have access to them there is no reason for you not to ask them the questions you posed in msg 3



Somehow I think that you will continue to ignore questions put to you regards the Cyprus issue and anything which you deem to be anti-TRNC. Not really fair that you expect answers but do not want to give any. Its really not conjucive to a fair and reasoned debate.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 02:13

this thread reads-change of attitude of greek cypriots??

Let me tell you there is a few people on this bb that need a change of their bloody attitude!i get fed up of reading the crap some of you lot throw at each other trying to score cheap points,its pathetic!!

i flew back from larnaca and was sat next to a GC,the young lady was absolutely delightful,we spoke about allsorts,she wasnt even born when the conflicts etc started!!some of the people that fly the flag for either side wasnt even born also,thats the bloody trouble,generations have passed and people are fighting causes that their predecessors have passed down. move on people!! thats my rant over with and i'm going bed! goodnight!! and no i've not been drinking! i'm just fed of reading shite!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 03:02

hope I am not driving anyone to drink or oblidging them to topple into bed,

nonetheless I would still appreciate getting a coherant answer to my original question:



does it particularly matter what some greek cypriots think?!?



I mean for anyone with a comittment to north cyprus either spiritual or financial,

what practical difference would it make to their life whether the gc's think

this or that, if there is a shift of some sort however subtle in their attitudes etc etc?

and how is this supposed movement likely to melt the frozen hostility between the sides?

granted that the by now semi-conscious sporty is right to say there are many nice people

on the other side of the 'line...



but we are as much in peril of "talking up" any real significance of these nuances and surveys,

just as we have "talked up" the meetings between christophias and talat, for a whole year

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 13:50

AJ



Have you drove over to Nicosia to ask the company your questions yet?



Im wondering what you will do if they ask you any? ;-)

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 18:44

If there IS any change of attitude from south of the border could it have anything to do with feeling the pinch (after joining the EU) following many years of booming growth? Could the GC economy be feeling the effects of credit-crunching and they now find themselves with something in common with their TC co-islanders? When things are going well and lots of dosh is being made its easy to take the 'I'm alright Jack' and 'blow anyone else' stance. The GCs adore their politics/religion and will argue the hind legs off a donkey but, sadly, they're blinded by the narrowness of their very insular political parties and the electorate can easily be swayed to go with the popular vote. Just depends WHICH party is saying what and whether they're in the slightest bit interested in re-unification. Pre-'74, whatever the problems between the 2 communities, it was always said "First & last you are all CYPRIOTS. Remember this and you will survive." Everyone's forgotten......

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 20:04

swannee7/Msg46:



' Pre-'74, whatever the problems between the 2 communities, it was always said "First & last you are all CYPRIOTS. Remember this and you will survive." Everyone's forgotten...... '



And THIS is the crux of the 'Cyprus Problem': If only the GC proletariat would realise that listening to and believing the bigoted 'papas' and indoctrinated school teachers will get them precisely nowhere; except permanent division of the island.



Can they not calmly assess where voting for Makarios and his cohorts (e.g. Nicos Koshis) and, after Glafcos Clerides, ex EOKA Papadopolous, got them?



The fact that they are unable to recognise that their collective intransigence in facing the reality of merging into the modern world is as illusory as their belief that they are 'the chosen race'.



The UN should walk out and the EU should suspend RoC membership the moment that this latest round of all these years of farcical 'reunification talks' becomes 'stalemate'.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 20:25

Msg47/Cont'd:



Ostracising RoC would certainly change their minds about reunification and, as an addition, slam a trade, cultural exchange and sports embargo on them - then they might understand what deprivations are faced by the TRNC. This would certainly jolt them!

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 20:43

msg. 47: It's been 'stalemate' for ever, hasn't it? Both sides of the political divide are equally to blame: suits the masters to maintain the status quo. Of course its a new world and a new world order now - even on the small island of Cyprus. The ROC have had the (financial) means to keep up while their cousins up north have not had the same opportunities. I can't actually say I agree with you that the RoC should be slammed with trade, cultural or other embargos. That rather sounds like a case of sour grapes (not that you get any of those in Cyprus!). Too much has been said over too many years about the wrongs - on both sides and by both sides. If only everyone in that melting pot could relegate the past to its proper category of History. Learn from the lessons of the past and......move on.....and up.....into the 21st C.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/09/2009 22:11

swannee7/Msg49:



Utopian speculation, or wishful thinking, will not resolve the 'Cyprus Problem' - the GC's, who started all the problems, because of their craving for 'Enosis', now need to be issued with stern ultimatums by the UN and EU - that is not 'sour grapes', as you put it; it is the only pragmatic solution to their perennial intransigence.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 11:59

Polls are notoriously unreliable and this one would probably be no different.

Personally I think that Internet sites are better indications of current feelings. I see no difference in the content for example on 'Freedom for Cyprus' or 'Justice for Cyprus' (PSEKA) now than before. They both still say 'never forget' with the North dripping with blood.



For the Greek Cypriots to change their attitude would also imply that they do not now think that Turkey and Turkish Cypriots are solely at fault for the Cypriot conflicts during the 1950's - 1970's.

They would therefore have to accept some blame for the atrocities during that time. Is that likely ? I don't think so.

I'll believe a change in attitude for example when the GC army stops chanting 'the only good Turk is a dead Turk'. Or when they stop commemorating the EOKA 'martyrs'. When they accept their part in 'the problem' and stop denying any responsibility.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 12:12

Geejay



On these internet sites there is a small hardcore % of the members who portray some of the feelings which you talk about.



Go back and read the last paragraph in msg 18 on this thread.





As for the claims of the "the only good Turk is a dead Turk". That is questionable at best. I have asked a couple of GC's whom I am friendly with and during their national service they never experienced this. They did see a couple of people in the army who wore them on their T-shirts but in no way was it a chant.



Both sides are guilty of commemorating martyrs

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 16:47

stubs.....remember....we're talking about attitudes here.

What I mentioned was reported in a paper or seen on internet sites. All these are indications of general attitudes. This is not a small percentage. It's a deliberate campaign that is still running after many years.



I regret that you feel that it's ok to commemorate the killers of EOKA and EOKA B. You do yourself no favours in being an apologist for their or any other terrorist group's activities.



Your message 18....this is not graffiti from 30 odd years ago, this is in this day and age when racism and religeous hate should have been left behind. You seem to imply that as it happened in the UK its ok to preach racism in Cyprus. Well its not in any circumstances.

swannee7


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:17

there are some hardcore 'attitudes' emerging over this thread, methinks! Just proves that everyone has their own very fixed ideas on certain subjects and don't like having the boat rocked. After all the horrors of '74 and the aftermath, the GCs raged and fumed - but - got on with creating new lives for themselves south of the border. Ordinary Turkish CYPRIOTS were, and still are, the only real losers of that period as a result of the nefarious duplicities of messrs. Denktash & Kutchuk. The current TRNC was founded on their corruption. Good or bad, nations will always 'honour' their historical martyrs and with the GCs having always been the majority community on the island their voice will always sound loudest. I still say - relegate attitudes and animosities of the past to the History books and move on.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:44

Geejay



You have completely missed the point and the point I made in msg 18.



Just because a few, and it is only a few write things on an internet forum it does not mean that they speak for the rest of the population.



If you have a look around this forum and other north based forums there are very few TC on them who get involved in political debates. It is mainly ex-pats who come away with anti-GC posts and not pro TRNC ones. Can you see the difference between anti-GC and pro TRNC? Even the ones who are pro-TRNC are not doing so because they support the TRNC as such, it is a vehicle for some as they have knowing bought land/property which had Esdeger deeds. They have no say in a solution however they do have a vested interest.



Secondly I do NOT think it is ok to commemorate the killings carried out by ANY terrorist organisation be it EOKA A, B, TMT, IRA, UDA or any other one you care to mention. No where did i say that



What i said was that both sides commemorate martyrs.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 19:46

Geejay



Further to my msg 18 which you have mis-interpreted.



During the 70's it was ok for these posters and slogans to be about. It did not represent the feelings of the majority of British people at the time did it?



Same thing, different country, 30 years later!!!!!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/09/2009 21:22

This all points to one thing; that neither side, cosseted in bigotry and corruption and bereft of 21st Century EU moral standards, as they are, are ready for self-government - this is quite apparent.



Quite what the answer is as to who should govern both sides, as a federated state, is debatable.



Failure to get their 'house in order' will be their undoing, eventually.



Of course, whether the above prediction is likely to happen would make an interesting subject for serious debate, as would discussion about an equitable solution to their dilemma.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
01/10/2009 21:35

Stubs

Message 45:



AJ



'Have you drove over to Nicosia to ask the company your questions yet?'



'Im wondering what you will do if they ask you any? ;-)'



Sorry I missed that message from you but why would I want to travel to Nicosia to ask questions that I have asked by e-mail (and had no reply from to date) and they are always welcome to ask me questions via e-mail but seeing as they do not want to communicate it is all pretty irrelevant. As I said before 'a ten bit company' who get paid by the interested parties that want the poll conducted and will produce the 'right' results for their paymasters.

I did not take you for a naive person but now you have got me thinking.

AJ