Court Case by Developer Backfires

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
21/11/2009 23:37

A court case by developer against buyers in an effort to silence any opposition to his plans to manage the site as he likes without a proper tendering process backfired on him. He asked the court for an injunction to muzzle the buyers but the court refused and asked them to put in writing their full claim and they have not done so since June 2009 and thus they are running the risk of dismissal with costs. Indeed the judge wanted to know what the contention was about and asked why a proper tendering process was not carried out.

In Turkish we say "Ava giden avlanır" which translates as "The hunter became a game himself".

ismet

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
21/11/2009 23:51

Ismet that sums it up. What chance has anybody got xxxxxxx

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 01:07

Hi ismet,



I don't know why these particular owners haven't gone with the courts decision but I think this is a victory for all the owners who are stuck with either the developer managing the site themselves or the developer putting in a management company of his or her choosing. Once a development has been sold, it should be the owners who decide who they want to manage their site and they should not be dictated to by often unscrupulous developers who are trying to line their own pockets, often where no accounts are available for owners to see where their money is being spent.



The butler

Rhodesian


Joined: 29/06/2009
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 09:44

At first the developer tried to blacken the names of these owners by circulating slanderous and untrue stories about them among other owners. When that did not succeed in shutting them up, he resorted to litigation.



Meanwhile, on the same site, a dozen other owners opened an Owner's Association (quite legally, after discussions with their attorneys and the District Office) to try to demand oversight and accountability. The developer has responded by orchestrating attacks on them and by opening a rival association to try to retain control over the site.



Nice people to deal with!

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 11:05

This is encouraging news . There will be a lot more happy owners in TRNC who now can see common sense prevail . To many owners have been supressed and left to feel like they rent instead of own on there sites . Some owners have no say in the way there complexes are run, are forced to go with developers/ M/C way of running things .

All decent owners want is transparency , a voice in running there own complexes This is brilliant news Another big big positive for the TRNC !!!!1

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 12:13

Pipie wrote, "all decent owners want is transparency."

Ismet, who is involved in this court case? It would be useful to others who might be looking for a property to know which developer it is that is trying to muzzle owners. It is important we help avoid repeats of property problems by publishing the names of all developers involved in court cases which they have lost or, as you write "are running the risk of dismissal with costs." We don't want the country to be known to property buyers as "Rip Off Cyprus."

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 12:19

This makes interesting reading: http://www.bogaz.info/offical-notices/2800_final_message_from_ali_ozmen_safa.htm

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 12:26

Name and Shame thats what I say

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 13:13

Name and Shame is the only way we seem to be able to stop developers repeating practices the court decides are wrong. Personally, I would not use a builder who has lost a court case and I'd like to know who they are. That would stop them doing it again! For me, that was the "Pressure" in the HBPG. In this case it is up to Ismet to tell us who the developer is; he started this post. NCFP would be happy to publish the details once they become public.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 14:01

Mind you I seem to remember that there was a list that the HBPG published and was duplicated on

http://www.starkibris.net/index.asp?haberID=3316 (original in Turkish) and http://www.north-cyprus-property.org/name_and_shame.htm (in English)

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 15:12

I read with interest the rant by Ali Safa to the owners at Safa Koy. message 7 What Mr Safa fails to mention that whilst he was trying to tell owners there, that the mortgage on their properties had been an error made in Cyprus. He was busy negotiating a mortgage for almost 2 million pounds on our homes in Esentepe. In fairness this has now been paid off but the owners have had 2 years of worry and stress. I also remember the articles of naming and shaming in the Kibris Star (owned by Ali Safa) and I emailed the paper and asked if they should not be putting their own house in order first. I received a cursory reply saying that the paper and developments were separate. The articles did stop though. We at Esentepe now have a new management company running our site, so with determination it can be done.



The butler

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 15:45

I have it on good authority that the company involved are Sweetwater Bay (SWB)

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 18:46

According to this thread: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/26554.asp Sweetwater won a property award last night. If this is the case, why are they being given an award? Last year Seaterra won several awards and yet they mortgaged their Reserve site for £2million (still unpaid) breaching contracts in the process. I'm surprised Gary Robb hasn't been awarded one for selling the cheapest properties. These awards are not voted for by the public or customers and entrants enter themselves and pay a fee. There are many good developers here, but I would suggest the Property Awards panel who judges this does a bit more research before they give out these awards because it will become farsical.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 19:43

Who gives these awards?



Where I worked ,there were a few plaques at reception to impress visitors. they said such things as European Electrotech Factory of the Year. Best Practise Award UK 1990.Factory of the Year UK 1990,with the name of the company included It was only when you read the small print that you saw they were awards from main office. Basically awards from ourselves to ourselves.

We were awarded best UK factory when there were only two factories in all.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 19:58

"We were awarded best UK factory when there were only two factories in all."

LOL. like it.

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 20:19

"Who gives these awards?"

Defunct property magazines in North Cyprus. The PropertyNC Magazine awards of a couple of years back were a right laugh. Pay us £250 and get an award, and just to make sure that people don't question us we'll have a big do at the Malpas Hotel as well included in the price.

As girne29 says there are no real award ceremonies, just made up awards from organisations that no one has heard of.

I work in retail and we have an 'Employee of the Month', 'Employee of the Year' and then all the stores winners go to a do in London for the overall winner of the 'Employee of the Year'. It's just a con as we know which stores turn it is to the overall employee of the year BEFORE the year even starts! But they say it looks goood and keeps moral high.....how little these managers actually know!!

To keep our 'Investor in People' 'award' we have to pay for it every year. Does that actually sound as though its kosher?!

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 20:27

re message 16 'Investor in People award' you are implying that to retain the award you merely have to pay..know you should know thats not the whole truth..yes there is fee but perhaps you are not high enough up the mnagement chain to undestand so you can mislead people as many others do on this and other sites

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 21:43

Rocky wrote, "you are implying that to retain the (IIP) award you merely have to pay"

I assume you are implying that in your business you had to re-qualify each year in order to retain the IIP award. In education after gaining the award you chose when to be visited within a 3 year period so that after the initial strain to gain the award the organisation can slump until the next visit. I think that counts as only having to pay to retain the award.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/11/2009 23:03

Timothycadman.

Your experience mirrors mine exactly.We had Engineer of the Month for each region annually.We were awarded quite good gift tokens so it wasnt to be sniffed at. However nobody I can remember got it twice ,though I wasnt there long. The guys used to say when wondering who would get it",it wont be me I got it two years ago". In a way it was a con but it at least it meant everyone was in with a chance .



didnt know there was an Investor in People Award, thought that was just a slogan that the suits thought up to make people think they gave a damn. It came at the same time as we stopped having Personnel Depts and started having Human Resources Dept's, a horrible title for a person 'a resource'.



The trnc property awards show annually gives out awards,but I think its awards from the industry to people in the industry.Last years best of,were Seaterra,Cyprus Hills village,Sunset Valley,D&B,Remax,London Cyprus Homes,Carringtons,Lynx and Abode Prop managements,Evergreen.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
26/11/2009 10:47

Any more update on the original thread ?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/12/2009 14:56

The case was up for today. The Developer has not filed the detailed claim yet but the judge looking after the case was ill and did not come, therefore the case was postponed to 17th December. I am not surprised at all that they are are very reluctant to file their detailed claim. I wonder why?

To file a case is very easy but not so easy to see it through!

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/12/2009 14:03

I don't know about you but I am not surprised at all that a detailed claim has not been filed yet by this overzealous developer trying to muzzle the buyers who oppose his plans to manage the site as he wishes. The case has been postponed to 28th December and it is their last chance to file it and let everyone see what claim they really have-if any!

As I said before, it is easy to file a case but not so easy to see it through!

Oh I must thank the advocate for the developer who complained to the judge that I was carrying a propaganda against them in very good English. Thanks for the compliments. The judge has been asking for the details of the tendering process for the choice of the management company. How are you going to explain that no tendering has taken place at all? You can't keep it a secret for ever, can you?

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 14:54

Well it is 28th December today and yet another appearence. I think the year 2009 must be very unlucky for some. You may well ask why?

First of all, the Developer had another go to get an injunction and filed an additional affidavit last time but the judge refused and ordered tem to deliver the additional affidavit to the defendants. Would you believe it? There has been a mix up between the Girne and Famagusta offices of the advocates for the developer and they did not realize that they did not do the formalities for service. So they promised the judge that they will do it now.

That is not enough. They were supposed to deliver their full detailed claim and they left it to the last minute i.e. today. And you know what? Their printer broke down, so they could not print it but promised to do so asap. Now I call that real unlucky, wouldn't you? The case has been postponed to 14th January for the last time and it is really the last time.

May I take the opportunity of this festive season and wish everyone a happy and prosperous New Year with no mix-ups and no break-downs.

ismet

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 16:09

Talk about idiots, and these people call themselves advocates! A child would only get these things muddled up. Printer broken down, .....what a load of old cobblers

Have these advocates ever had a proper job in their lives? have they never heard of organization? It strikes me as another instance of pulling the wool over ones eyes!



Ismet I always enjoy reading your posts,



Happy New Year to you.

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 12:49

any updates on this one?

gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 13:32

Case is tomorrow.

sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 14:01

fingers crossed they win it might stop other Companies railroad themselves in and self appointing themselves and disrupting tender process on other sites

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 19:19

re message 26 does it ever come, the most hepful member has been quiet on this thread recently

gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 19:33

rocky read the 3rd paragraph of msg 23

Texas


Joined: 22/09/2009
Posts: 634

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 21:08

"Printer didn't work"



So, why didn't the judge order them to get their office to email it to the court/someone who has a printer, then print the damn thing out?



Simples.



Just imagine that I couldn't pay a fine, because my dog/cat/hamster hid my cash card. Oh, the bank was open, I also had a cheque book, I could have borrowed it, I still have another bank card, but hey, it's an excuse that must now be accepted in the TRNC as it's better than the one above that has now been established as a precedent!



Bloody joke!

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 23:09

Let's just say there are two sides to a story- I suspect there may have been at least confusion and maybe at worst incompetence by the solicitors acting for the developers. I'd rather wait to see what the Court finally decide.

It's a little bit funny that for some reason one thread regarding SWB doesn't appear in the general listing. Has the originator of the posting somehow prevented it being on the general listing [if so, what was the point?], or has there been intervention by someone else?

I'd rather see the truth [and by that, I mean the whole truth], come out.

Let's hope the developer's solicitors get their act together and actually file whatever they should have filed ages ago regarding this matter, so that the Court can decide the case on it's merits.

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
13/01/2010 23:39

yes it is strange arthur is someone manipulating the site??

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
14/01/2010 00:29

Rocky, you old cynic

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
14/01/2010 11:55

wotme arthur

zhivago


Joined: 21/01/2009
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
14/01/2010 19:11

I not underztand dis it today tomorrow or tommorow today

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/01/2010 22:59

A follow on from msg. 23. The case was on today and surprise surprise, the detailed claim was filed today. If you remember, they were going to file it on 28th December but unfortunately their printer had broken down. Very bad luck I would say but what I am curious about, why not file it the next day, why wait until today? Damn, I almost forgot that this is Cyprus, do you think it is so easy to find someone to repair the printer? May be it took so long. Of course they are in a hurry to have the matter heard in court as soon as possible, its just bad luck that they could ahve the print ready only today, just in time to wave off a cancellation of the whole case. I wish them a better luck from now on. The case will follow its natural course i.e. have the defence filed within 14 days, then have "directions", then exchange of all relevant documents, then priliminary hearing and so on.

I hope that in the meantime, the tendering process that the judge has been asking for is carried out ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/01/2010 23:00

ctd.

properly and decided upon. Good luck to everyone and may the fair play win.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 12:09

I have been getting many e.mails asking for the outcome. Here is a very short update without much comment:

1. As stated above the Plaintiffs filed their detailed claim on Thursday 14th January 2010. The defendants have been accused additionally for what I have written on Cyprus44 "as the agent acting for the defandants". No comment



2. Full defence (18 pages long) was filed on Monday 18th January 2010. That was quick!!!



3. According to the rules the Plaintiffs had seven days to file their reply which is optional. They did not do so but they can ask for permission to file later.



4. The Defendants filed for "Instructions" on 28th january 2010 and the date fixed for 9th February 2010. "Instructions" is one step before the trial whereby the sides declare which documents they intend to submit in evidence during the trial and also which document they need from the other side.



5. on 9th February the Plaintiffs objected to "Instructions" and said that they will file an ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 12:18

ctd.

objection for "Instructions" because according to the new rules only the Plaintiffs can ask for it and they have not done so. Furthermore they are working on the "Reply" and intend to file it soon. The judge was not sure why the Plaintiffs were apparently trying to delay the trial and enquired about it. Normally the Plaintiffs want to have the trial as soon as possible and the defendants normally try to delay it. The opposite seems to be the case in this instance and not even once did the Defendants ask for a postponement!!!



6. The saga of the addiditonal affidavit: The defendants advocate stated to the court that she is ready to accept service but to date it has not been served. There is some confusion as to what happened to it.



So watch this space as it unfolds. I am witholding any comments about the contents of the Claim and the Defence and I am giving you only the steps as they happen.

ismet

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 13:08

Thanks for update . I think a few more owners on complexes growing in numbers will be watching this case withvery closely with eager interest .

As more complexes are facing this problem .

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 13:10

any updates

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 15:20

Hi Rocky,

I was getting the impression that nobody was interested in this saga any more, so I was waiting for a more solid result before a further update. Anyway, I must not disappoint you, must I?

The next date for appearence is 24th March. The Plaintiffs must be clutching at the last straw because they filed an additional affidavit accusing me elko2 Ismet Ustuner of writing untrue things about them "under instructions" from the defendants and thus they are holding the defendants responsible for what I write. Pretty desperate aren't they. Who instructed me and when? Ah well, I hope they prove this in court and then I can go and claim my cheque for the effort I put in



Seriously though, I must start courses for the new advocates and teach them how to file cases of libel. Points to look for:

1. Sufficient details must be given to locate the post in question.

2. The actual offending words must be quoted in full.

3. An interpretation of their normal meaning as understood by the men in the street must be given.



Would you believe it, if the items 1 and 2 above is missing, its a no no go. Good luck to any new advocates intending to get involved in libel cases

ismet

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 17:40

Ismet, I think the youngsters have been watching to many hollywood law films.



The truth will out in the end, sounds to me like they are as you say "clutching at straws" or at least trying to delay proceedings. My sister in law, a lawyer in scotland, once told me that stretching out the case can be a double edged sword. It may give you more time to find a way around things but not only does it give your opposition the same chance, it also starts to annoy the judge if nothing useful is raised and that will kill your case.



Paul

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 18:25

msg.43

Proger,

That is exactly what has happened on both counts

ismet

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 18:50

ismet,

Don't tell me you know the judge personally ???



Paul

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 19:29

msg.45

Proger,

No but I am aware of her remarks.

ismet

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 19:35

Maybe I am out of touch with modern day legalities, but just talking about known situations with reference to evidenciary statements is a little difficult to be used for a libel action.



Maybe you could counter sue for deformation of character or are you already on that one ?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 19:52

msg.47

Proger,

This is a complicated subject. What is written in the "pleadings" i.e. papers submitted to court are "priviledged" i.e. they cannot be the subject of a libel case. The theory behind it is that parties to a court case must feel free to express themselves freely without fear of a libel action. However if you take a libellous statement from the pleadings and repeat it elsewhere you may be liable for it. On the other hand, if you repeat it during a trial in an open court and somebody repeats what was said there outside the court in my view there is nothing that can be done about it. In such situations it is up to the judge to caution the wittnesses if they go too far.

On the other hand, what is said in the courtroom or even in chambers can be repeated outside and it cannot be considered confidential but it must not be libellous. I am afraid even many lawyers don't know much about these things and they try to make the law as they go along. The more I see the more I despair and I have seen plenty of that recently. I talk to young lawyers regularly and quite often they do consult me on various matters

ismet

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
20/03/2010 19:55

All I can say is, I hope your on my side if ianything goes wrong for me. inshallah

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
24/03/2010 12:36

The next date is 15th April.

The Plaintiffs were not ready to deal with their application to file an additional affidavit accusing me as Ismet Ustuner writing against them on behalf of the Defendants (my foot) because they intend to file a "Reply". They had the defendants' objections on Thursday 18th March with a series of preliminary objections (legal points) and today instead of going ahead with their application they intend to file a "Reply" to the objections from the Defendants. In the rules there is no such thing as "Reply" to the objections to an application but of course the judge has the discretion to allow them to file any additional pleadings if she sees fit.



Anyway, they did the "Instructions" today, i.e. both sides specified the documents to be exchanged before the trial. So 15th April is the date for a) Preliminary hearing on the main claim, b) To deal with the application for filing an additional affidavit by the Planintiffs. So there is very little room left for delays any more. Did I say I look forward to the actual trial which can be soon after the Presidential elections? Hooray, the big day is now very near!!!

ismet

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
24/03/2010 14:34

Thanks for update elco2 !!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
24/03/2010 15:18

Normally a plaintiff asks for an injunction (interim order) because of the urgency of the case bearing in mind that it takes a long time to have the main case ready for trial. In this particular case the main case is ready for trial despite the fact that it was the plaintiffs who delayed the process all along by asking for numerous postponements. So on the one hand you have the main case ready for a full trial (bar the preliminary hearing on 15th April) and on the other hand they are going to discuss whether the additional affidavit in conjunction with the injunction can be allowed to be filed. Only a little bit of legal common sense will point in the right direction. Of course some lawyers love postponements because the cash register records automatically

ismet

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
31/10/2010 23:40

So.............what's going on then?

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 00:17

Arthur, my guess is that lawyers charge out rates to clients for time spent in actual court advocacy far exceeds the rates charged for time spent in their office watching dust settle on the case files whilst recording "preparation" !

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 07:30

Ah yes, just before the summer recess they had a trial on whether to allow the additional affidavit to be filed for the injunction application. The judge decided against SWB. There was no appeal against this decision. Then after the summer recess SWB withdrew its application for an injunction. Now the scene is set for the actual case for libel. If you ask my opinion, the next step is to withdraw the case altogether and face a hefty cost. The other option is to have the trial and pay even more in costs when the case reaches its inevitable end. It is really an open and shut case

For those who did not follow this case closely, here is a summary in a nutshell: A buyer wrote about the SWB land being a Greek Cypriot land and the dialogue they had with this owner. It was a true statement, hence an open and shut case. The case was filed with the intention of gagging these critics of the developer and his pally maintenance company. Good luck to these "cunning" people.

ismet

Texas


Joined: 22/09/2009
Posts: 634

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 08:48

Elko, you may think it's an open and shut case. You may even me legally and morally right.



But what has that got to do with justice?



If SWB, their advocates, friends, or even their neighbours puppies know the judges better than you and the people on your side, have you got a chance?



If your advocate is the judges 2nd cousin, but SWB's advocate, is the judges 1st cousin, you may be bankrupted.



Let's be careful out there! (Remember Hill Street Blues?).

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 09:59

msg 56

Texas,

My observation is that there is a widespread phoby amongs the expats that the courts are biased but I have been interested in the legal system for many many years and I have seen very little of that, almost non existent. Somehow, it suits people to believe what they like to believe.



I presume you all know by now that I do not hesitate to speak my mind and criticise the system when it is due. In the 44 years that I am able to observe the elgal system, I came accross one case of irregular behaviour by one judge and he was forced to resign. In another case the Chief Justice was forced to leave his post by the decision of his fellow High Court judges. So in short, I do not agree with you at all but you may think what you like.

ismet

Texas


Joined: 22/09/2009
Posts: 634

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 10:04

Elko,



When money is involved, anything can happen. It goes on in the UK, it goes on everywhere. Cases won against huge multinationals by little people are very rare.



They can afford to keep going. It's not always that the judges can be bought off.



Anyway, I was told about the nepotism in the court system, by a very experienced barrister, that previously, you stated, was one of the good guys.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/11/2010 10:26

Its true that the big companies can afford to keep going and I bet they thought they could crash the defendants into submission with costs but it backfired on them because I was involved and made sure that they did not pay anything except the initial modest fee. As far as I am concerned, money is not everything.



I can assure you that the integrity of our judges are above any suspicion. Of course they can make mistakes with their decisions, after all they are humans. I wish I could say the same thing about the integrity of some advocates. There is a very serious problem there and I don't think the problem is handled properly so far. There is a need for serious weeding.

ismet

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 23:03

will Geoff get the same judge ..???