Attention all property purchasers - HBPG - 8th APRIL 2010

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 15:31

This is your chance to demonstrate solidarity. Please check the HBPG website for further details.



Property issues on this forum always generate a lot of interest and certain topics have attracted a tremendous number of viewings, e.g. the Orams, the Aga Trio (ABAG??) etc.



For all those people who have complained about their builder, their lawyer, the government, the legal system, this is an opportunity to give a clear message to the TRNC authorities and to the whole property sector that we will not go away. The current problems must be addressed and cannot be continually postponed due to settlement talks, presidential, general and local elections etc. etc. etc.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 15:36

my ten pennyworth....



Marion Stokes deserves a pat on the back - however, the Government ain't interested....



The legal system also seems stacked against us Brits too...



Anyway, its coming back to haunt them because the property market is now in freefall as disgruntled buyers tell their experiences to potential buyers....



I think the get together might be alright for a "group hug" - but as to real changes to the system, you are likely to be in for a big disapointment.

loulou



Joined: 14/05/2008
Posts: 785

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 16:45

load of wa**

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 17:23

I wonder if this is going to be like the demonstration in May 2007 which was cancelled when the Property Complaints Office was promised.



http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/Minutes/minutes080507.html

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 19:13

Since the 'Orams Result', have the government made any definitive statements with regard to safeguarding British/foreign property buyers interests?



As much as I admire the stalwart HBPG team, and I, along with so many others do, it is plain to see that, apart from 'lip service', the government have never had, or now appear to have any interest, whatsoever, in the sound recommendations repeatedly 'presented to them on a plate' and carefully thought out to be of the long term mutual benefit to both potential buyers, past and present buyers and, indeed, the 'recipe for salvation' of the TRNC's image and prime earner for the economy - the construction and realtor sectors.



The TRNC cannot expect any international respect, or consideration, until they are seen to 'put their house in order' - when are 'the powers that be' going to realise this, or are they too bigoted towards foreigners, or too cosseted in their recently accumulated wealth to give a damn?

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 19:46

Sorry to be negative, and I HATE being less than ;positive, or encouraging, or 'calming '(as lovely Mamachina referred to me), but I don't solidarity is worth a solid kouros at the moment.



The government have got more than enough on their plates, and the 'housing/building' problems are, as the Aussies say 'a top shelf job'.



I have an ongoing problem, but I am not expecting it to be resolved. The lovely Marian gave me advice which amounted to nothing and I have made no progress in over 2 years on a VAT issue. The lovely ladies at the P.I.O who speak little English , are just that - 'lovely' but I think are a 'front' for the Government who hide back at their desks dealing with other matters.



It would be good to think that everyone going to a meeting on tghe 8th April would change anything, but it is preaching to the converted.



Sorry to be 'cynical' and 'negative' and as I say, I HATE tghat, but there is nothing worse than getting hopes up and having them burst like a balloo

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 19:49

Where and when?

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 20:40

We hope to hold a protest in London on the same day perhaps...........by that time the lawsuit will have been filed. We normally only get a medium crowd, but if it is held simulatiously maybe there would be more - who knows. We will get back to you and see what the other AGA and other victims think



Regarding Msg 4



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!2294.entry



ABAG

xxxxxx

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 20:51

I do hate to seem negative but find myself agreeing with the all the others who have expressed their cynicism & negativity. The Government simply do not care about buyers here. We are bottom of their list of priorities.

Still have major property problems after 8 years here & they are just not going away.

The Government Ministers here are so shortsighted & that has never changed & sadly, I can't see that it ever will.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 20:53

And don';t forget, tha tyou are NOT allowed to protest as 'yabanci' here. It is against the law. You can protest WITH the government, but not against it. So be careful how you show your frustrations and unhappiness.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 21:21

Marie you are wrong on the no protest thing.



There is no problem in holding a demonstration to show your feelings. This has been confirmed by a letter from the Attorney General in answer to a question during the last government.



Obviously not going to be an issue given the above responses although no details of what is to take place on the 8th have been released. May actually be a picnic in the park!!!!



Whatever happens if no body turns out the government will have confirmed that there are no problems. This being the reason the PIO failed, nobody went to them in large enough numbers and the government decided it was a waste of time. Typical of British people, lots of whinging and moaning but so few were prepared to stand up and be counted.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 21:29

cyprusishome



" Typical of British people, lots of whinging and moaning but so few were prepared to stand up and be counted. "



Don't we know that oh so well !!!!!!!!!



:0)

x

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 21:36

Can we also just ask one more question



How come the HBPG have all of a sudden changed their minds about protest ?



When we protested last August we were subjected to a Cyprus Today press torrent from Marian Stokes



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!2104.entry



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!2119.entry



Something has changed - WHAT ?



ABAG

x

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
18/02/2010 22:24

Sorry if I gave wrong info, but that is what I was told a while back - well, maybe a silent protest, but no banners etc. but if it has changed, all well and good.

But it is not fair to see that we moan and groan and do nothing - I think a lot ofpeople have tried (viz AGA group) but banging your head against a brick wall produces pain, and also it is a kinda Mediterranean/Arabic thing that things are said but little done.

It is really a question of how to go about it to greatest effect. My own case is very frustrating, but Ijust haven't got my Kocan - bu tmaybe a picnic in the park as a protest with the media and the Government seeing that we ARE taking it sitting down (in peace - Ghandi style) might make them realise that we are hurting. But it means everyone in the PARK.

But even so, what will happen out of that? Nothing. Is that not why the AGA group are ging down a different path.

And I agree with the quesiton 'Why now' with the HBPG. Can anyone tell me more of what it is abo

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 01:15

Sorry D (CIH), I've heard the arguments before about lack of complaints at the PIO causing its demise. The number of complaints was actually qiuite substantial. The excuse for no results at the beginning was "too many cases." & "be patient". Well given the number of cases brought, then why oh why were none (well maybe just one case) successful. Surely there should have been more successes if the PIO wasn't exactly overwhelmed. You & they cannot have it both ways.

Just one purchaser got their deposit back from a well known (infamous) estate Agent, as I recall.

I'm sure Mal, malsancak can confirm the PIO success stories or lack of them.

How have demonstrations helped ABAG?

I don't see the Government doing anything about Property problems for either TCs or expats, unless, maybe they get smacked with a very big stick from Turkey. I'm even sceptical that this would help.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 07:10

Actually there is nothing on HBPG site to indicate a demonstration or any other. Just can you keep the date clear!!!!!!



J, there were just over 400 registered complaints went to PIO. That after the government were told there were "thousands" of people with issues. All I heard from folk for not was the same as above - what is the point of..........the government here are ******** etc



Probably 1 day out 7 I just want to chuck in the towel but if I give up then I will never get my home. This is still a great place to live and will fight with any tool in my possesion to get our home finished even if none of the above want to join in.

Doonhamer


Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 65

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 08:26

I remember someone saying to me b4 that after a while the builders, legal people & government just wear you down to the point that you feel that there is no more avenues to go down and as such just give up, there are hundreds if not thousands without deeds and other problems who have pursued and pursued all the above and also spoken with HBPG but to no avail, reading most of the above comments confirm this. The government will not do anything but maybe smile,listen, blame everyone else and make empty promises.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 10:37

Scruff



WE agree with the PIO explanation, we haanded in a number of AGA cases and not one got a reply from that phoney office - another stalling process aided and abetted .......



"How have demonstrations helped ABAG? "



It has not helped phyically, but, they are sure aware of Pat, Sue & Sandra and they sure do worry about what we will do next. If you had seen the reaction of the Turkish Embassy in London when we turned up there handing out leaflet and showing our banner - you would realise that Turkey is the way to go. When we protest in London in the spring we will concentrate on the Turkish Embassy - there is soooooo much more reaction. Also they are aware of the impending lUS awsuit and they sure won't want that being highlighted on their doorsteps !



Still our question to the HPBG who have spent much time trying to discredit our actions in the media regarding protest is as in Msg 13



Something has changed - WHAT ?







ABAG



x

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 11:05

Unfortunately the government are more interested in having more pointless talks with the RoC, that will never lead anywhere.



Much easier than dealing with real issues regarding the economy, attracting foreign money etc that will cause a real improvement to country and its citizens lives.....



I agree the Marion does sterling work, but surely she must realise that the TRNC is a basket case that will never sort out it's internal problems, prefering to blame outsiders for every ill





Mark

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 11:50

To all the moaners, doubters, cynics, sceptics, whatever…



If you do nothing, nothing will change.



To the ABAG ladies, nothing has changed yet but that hasn’t deterred you has it? Personally, I do not agree with your course of action because I happen to think you are being manipulated. However, I do understand why you felt the need to and, right or wrong, it certainly got the government’s attention didn’t it?



Whatever our personal views we all have at least one thing in common. The existing property laws discriminate against foreigners.



The TRNC has been isolated for nearly 40 years and it is clearly evident in so many ways. They do not live in the real world but so desperately want to. As much as they may hate to admit it, Cypriots, Greek and Turkish, have much in common and their ideas and philosophies belong to a past that no longer exists.



Cont'd

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 11:53

Currently, pressure to change is greater in the South. As a legitimate member of the EU you have to tow the line and we all know that discrimination in any way is simply not permitted.



Change does not happen overnight as property purchasers are well aware. Many live here permanently and want to see the TC’s achieve recognition after years of discrimination. Foreigners are still perplexed as to why the Turkish Cypriots have not done more to change their non-recognised status. The Cyprus problem is only attracting so much international attention now because the EU are desperate to tidy up their mistake of admitting a politically divided country.



We are now the new minority who are being discriminated against. IT IS WRONG. Show unity, show determination and do not accept that this is it. Everything is possible if you are determined to achieve your goal.



For those who do nothing, what do you expect?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 12:00

There are so many issues which can be demonstrated about but to send a clear message there needs to be a focus on a single issue. For me there is only one change that would have made a difference and it isn't all that complicated. PTP and title deeds before paying more than a returnable deposit placed in a protected account. What about the rest of you, what property related change would you be willing to demonstrate about?

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 13:49

Mal

Totally agree with your last message. Don't complicate it by asking about any other changes that people would like to see. Unfortunately successive Governments have not even started to make the changes required. Property law here seems cast in stone. Maybe the problem is that the legal profession have a vested interest in the status quo because it's a nice little earner for them. In any civilized country there would be changes to archaic laws suggested by the Judiciary to the Legislature.

When I have been told by my advocate, that such & such cannot happen because of the laws in Cyprus, I have asked "Well why are the laws not changed" Answer has been the Cyprus shrug.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 15:25

Msg 20/21



No Molly it hasn't deterred us, but some victims just can't be bothered, and think that other victims will do it for them, or think the TRNC Government will eventually bail them out!!! Sad but True – and that is just NOT going to hapen



As regards ABAG being manipulated, we have not been manipulated more than by either the criminals whilst the TC Government let them do their worst whilst they looked the other way, or the Government to have lied consistently to us for the past 6 years, and now want to wash their hands of the midden that is of their making.



The last thing we as ABAG have done for 6 years is nothing, you can't accuse ABAG of that, but still Molly we have nothing. perhaps manipulation from another source will gain us some ground, cos this Government just want each and every Aga victim to just walk away, and forget what the TRNC has done to us



Well unfortunately for them we won’t and whether our route is liked or not the next episode of this

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
19/02/2010 15:26

Well unfortunately for them we won’t and whether our route is liked or not the next episode of this debacle will be on an international stage with by far the biggest group of victims that have come together so far – even we have been surprised by the numbers !



Pat

Abag

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
20/02/2010 08:28

Malsancak, msg 22.



I agree with your point on what to change for future purchases and focus on one point at a time is a good idea.



Problem is that most folk cannot even be bothered fighting to get what they should have so how would they turn out to change laws for the future? Rhetorical question!!!!!!!!!!

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
22/02/2010 09:17

You see Molly most victims in both the UK & North Cyprus can't be bothered, the 8th April, seems a long way ahead!!, some victims will have other commitments, or be otherwise engaged, or partying, or on holiday etc., it's difficult, you have to keep focused, not pretend you are going to demonstrate, then decide the Government will help, (cos they don't want you to demonstrate)!! when they certainly WILL NOT!!



The HBPG are obviously hoping that the Government will come up with another PCO/PIO (or something similar whatever they want to call it)?? or at the very least talk to the HBPG!



ABAG are not talking anymore, but we will demonstrate outside the Turkish Embassy in London on April 8th to co-ordinate with your demonstration in the TRNC, to help other Victims of the TRNC, if they want to be bothered?? either this side or your side? it's up to them!!

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
22/02/2010 09:20

As AGA Victims we cared very much, but now we are going in our own direction, sick of talking to a Government who blatantly doesn't want to listen, sick of talking to victims who can't be bothered, or are too busy,or who still think their properties will be built with or without clean title (whatever that means)?



Perhaps the HBPG as usual won't want ABAG to demonstrate this side, and as usual ABAG won't care any more if HBPG wants us to or not,



Molly the TRNC is a Roulette Wheel, we have worked long and hard to ensure that no-one else loses their life savings to this very corrupt Country both North and South of the Green Line!! and yes it is both sides, but be assured that the corruption within the TRNC which is the corruption we have seen for ourselves will be the one we will make sure is displayed to the world on the USA Stage !!



Pat

Abag

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
22/02/2010 16:02

Is it apathy or pathetic?



A topic relating to an East Enders story line gets a few more viewers but 4 time more postings than this thread.



I guess there can't be too many problems after all, certainly not serious enough to get people out of their armchairs anyway. It's only money after all.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
22/02/2010 19:33

I think, Molly, it's not the 'money issue'; it's more a case of disaffected people feeling an utter sense of hopelessness, because, come what may, successive governments have ignored the (construction industry)problems deliberately and still appear to do so.



'See all, hear all an' say nowt - eat all, sup all an' pay for nowt,

An' if yer can ger owt fer nowt, gerrit for thee'sen!



Beggar thee, Jack - I'm in't boat, the'st in't water!'



That old Yorkshire adage surely couldn't be more applicable than to the 'powers that be' in Cyprus!



Anyway, I'm pleased I don't live in Niger, Zimbabwe, or Cote d'Ivoire - or, come to think of it, anywhere else in Africa!

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 09:14

Tenaktou



Perhaps the "disaffected people feeling an utter sense of hopelessness" should get off their butts and actually try to do something constructive other than just moan about their plight.



Some of the British bull dog spirit would not go amiss. Do not give up, don't admit defeat, keep chipping away irrespective of who is in power - it will require patience, persistance and tenacity. But if you keep bringing the message to their attention, i.e make a nuisance of ourselves, they will concede and do something. Not everything, but we have to start somewhere.



If you do nothing, nothing will change.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 10:36

EXACTLY !!! Those who sit back and do nothing !!! simply !! nothing will get done !!.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 10:58

The HBPG, as the organised representative group of cheated people's legal and property problems, have already offered the last government the 'panacea' for this myriad of problems - all ignored, unless anyone supposes that that farce of a meeting at the 'Pia Bella' has changed anything.



It is too easy for the 'powers that be' to simply ignore the problems and carry on accepting *Turkish and EU 'handouts', which (allegedly!) fund their lavish lifestyles, rather than upgrade the sorry state of even the existing infrastructure.



Therefore, unless the *'paymasters' issue firm directives to the government to force them to leglislate according to EU guidelines and institute a non-discriminatory and civilised legal system and code of conduct within the construction and real estate sectors, with the warning that, otherwise, further funds will be witheld, it is ridiculous to assume that the government will take a scrap of notice of a small bunch of (British) protestors.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 12:15

You give up too easily.



The TRNC is not in the EU (thank goodness) and is unlikely to be for some considerable time (if ever). Entry to the EU is not the panacea to all problems.



Turkey is the TRNCs EU equivalent and they are not going to bail out the TRNC forever. They simply cannot afford to. The authorities here have been sheltered and protected for almost 40 years. Reality and recognition are beginning to dawn but it comes at a price and they will realise that they just can't make up their own rules on the international stage.



There are international and domestic battles to be won. I appreciate that they find it hard to concentrate on two things at once but that's all part of running a country. It's not all about elections, prestige, publicity shoots, back slapping etc, you also have make unpopular decisions, formulate policy and build a sustainable economy.



The property sector has tremendous potential but only if they address the problems of the past.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 12:49

That is why we are gunning for Turkey with the USA lawsuit - might not be to everyones taste - but it will sure make Turkey sit up and listen - for £190 (+ nothing unless successful) what else is there - we have asked for other options but NONE have been forthcomming - The noise coming from this lawsuit will certainly be loud if nothing else



ABAG

x



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 14:18

Molly &pipie



Trouble is Aga Buyers have got off their butts and done something but have been slagged off by some for doing so.Seems they cant win.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/02/2010 19:05

Molly/Msg 34:



It's not a case of me, alone, 'giving up too easily'.



As much as I admire your sentiments, viz a viz 'the Bulldog spirit', it's all too plain to see that the government, having obviously discussed this currently dire situation, have collectively agreed that the 'status quo' can continue to swell the coffers of the 'powers that be' - i.e. the banks, advocates, and the government 'take' in general, without any foreseeable accountability.



The iniquitious tax regime and the high level of totally unnecessary bureaucracy exemplifies just how much the government actually cares about its citizens. Their failure to encourage foreign investment for TRNC, due to the above, is the prime, glaring example of their monopolistic mindset.



For TRNC to be recognised, it needs to attract 'the sympathy vote', internationally.



Having already earned a wide reputation for corrupt practice and racism, continuance of the same will not engender TRNC that vital 'sympathy ingredient'.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
24/02/2010 09:33

Msg 26/girne 29



We have been slagged off by so many so often - it's like water of a ducks back to us now !!!, but there is one thing for sure and that is we won't walk away, Thanks for your support!!!



Abag

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/02/2010 09:58

Abag ladies:



You have been utterly and despicably cheated and treated in TRNC and caught up in the biggest 'powers that be' sanctioned scam in the 'country's' history.



The banks' mortgage lending scam has yet to 'hit home' - this will surely supersede anything else!



Your tenacity in seeking redress is admirable - by whatever means.

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
24/02/2010 10:08

" The banks' mortgage lending scam has yet to 'hit home' "



The details of which will become clear when the banks are supoenaed to appear in the USA - Amazing what a story a money trail will tell. After all the picture is much bigger than that of the AGA SAGA alone, which is proved by those who have joined the lawsuit - although the majority AGA victims are not the only property victims who have signed up :0)



ABAG



http://latchfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!AED4FE7679CA3C33!2347.entry

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/02/2010 12:35

ABAG Ladies wrote:



'After all the picture is much bigger than that of the AGA SAGA alone...'



Ladies, you have absolutely 'put the ring round it'!



The $64k question is: How many foreigners, and even TC's, will be ultimately caught up in this scam, and will it actually culminate in their properties being put up for auction - how can this crime be prevented?



For those who know that they're already victims of this outrageous 'scam', and having no other recourse to justice, if the bank involved is Turkish, or International, the obvious answer is to join your action group.



For those that have discovered that it is a wholly owned TRNC bank involved that is unlikely to respond to any foreign subpoena - what can these victims do?

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
24/02/2010 12:58

" For those that have discovered that it is a wholly owned TRNC bank involved that is unlikely to respond to any foreign subpoena - what can these victims do"





99.9% of the banks involved have a physical presence in one way or another in the USA - this means they come under the jurisdiction of the USA and can be subpoenaed to appear. The banks concerned at the international level have provided a conduit to the TRNC to channel the monies wrongfully taken from people like AGA Buyers Action Group and other property victims. As we said in an earlier posting the opening of these accounts will tell a story as we, with the evidence we hold will be able to match 1000’s of transactions and connect them back to the TRNC and those involved - no matter which bank as these names will appear in the money trail in one way or another outside the TRNC

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/03/2010 16:16

So what is happening on April 8th? Will it be like the 3rd and 10th March events?