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parcelisation of land not completed can that prevent sell of property

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basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 12:43

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Message 1 of 42 in Discussion

just need some advise here there are 11 villas on this land,there are two pending for tittle deeds but they have issues with memorandums by builders due to the bankcrupcy of the developer.one property found a buyer and they the buyer were advised that until the parcelisation is complete the sale has to wait

when I bought a villa on this site this was not an issue

will buyers be advised of this when I sell or should the buyer change his lawyer thanks



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 12:59

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Message 2 of 42 in Discussion

Bash,.. is it just a few villas that have memorandums on them or is it the whole site ?



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
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Message Posted:
27/11/2011 13:11

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Message 3 of 42 in Discussion

Two villas with memorandums but two without deeds so could be next victims as debts grows or builder spends more and new debts become evident. Are you trying to sell the villa with the memorandum? It is not clear.



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 13:33

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Message 4 of 42 in Discussion

Basheer,

as more and more buyers get wise to the risks of buying in the TRNC, their demands become firmer. The savvy buyers no longer leave the whole process up to the advocate but now state exactly what they want the advocate to do. This is very easy given the wealth of information available from HBPG that take buyers through the whole process.Very few now pay the advocates full fees up front and this means that if the advocate fails to do a thorough search, does not identify the pitfalls etc he simply will not get paid. Worse still his name may end up on one of the many forums which will impact on further business.



You state that when you bought your villa the above was not an issue. However it should have been an issue, to ignore it means you put yourselves at risk of future problems. This is why the advocate will not proceed on behalf of his clients. I assume if you have deeds they are house deeds but not land deeds?



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 13:39

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Message 5 of 42 in Discussion

hi thanks for replying,of the 11 villas,all but two have title deeds ,therefore as two are pending ,the parcelisation of the land cannot be completed,so we who have the title deeds own whats on the land ie(1/11)the two who have no title deeds did not rush thinking there was no rush,sad for them the developer found himself in trouble and the builders applied memorandums on their property so now those two owners are unable to move forward while issues remain on their property,and the parcelisation cannot be completed or that a bill may have to be shared by the other 9 owners to finalise the land issue( this part has to be confirmed) in the meantime a couple of owners wish to sell of which one has a buyer for which a deposit has been placed, the buyers laywer has advised the buyer that the parcelisation is not complete,this has delayed the sale.Is this a future issue the land or should the buyer find another lawyer or if I were to sell at sometime will I too find I cannot sell due tothis



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
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Message Posted:
27/11/2011 13:41

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Message 6 of 42 in Discussion

Should you find another advocate?



I'm sure you will find one that allows buyers to go through the "pretend"sale as most TRNC advocates appear to have had their scruples removed at birth. I shouldn't think it would be a problem but whether this is ethically acceptable is another question altogether.



What is the likelihood of you getting the land parcelised? It would be beneficial to the whole site in the long run.



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 13:47

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Message 7 of 42 in Discussion

I was the last buyer but to make this clear I bought the last villa of the 11 on the land from the developer so did not purchase the villa of someone who was selling so the developer sold all of the 11 plots and once the title deeds were passed to all, only then the parcelisation could be made, therefore we own 1/11 of the land and whats on it,therefore i own whatever is on my share of the land at present



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 14:33

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Message 8 of 42 in Discussion

previous commnication between lawyer and myself

is the Kocan for the house as well as the Land.

my wife has just changed the belediyie account from builder to hers, she was told she could now get a reduction on her water bill from kaymakamlik labelled under "final approval land please let me know if title deeds are for both land and property thanks basheer



reply by my laywer

Yes it includes 1/11 share of the whole plot.



seems final approval is another word for parcelisation



sharpei


Joined: 20/11/2011
Posts: 20

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 16:14

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Message 9 of 42 in Discussion

Hi



We are in the same position .

We have a memorandum on our site ....We were not in a position 1 year ago to get a share of our land however a few other villa owners were , they are now in possession of a share of the land on our site.The share document does not specify the size or plot on the site just a share . Since then a memorandum has been put on our site , however the builder says we can still receive the share , is this possible and is it actually worth getting?? Also will the memorandum be only on the villas who have no share or on the whole site as it is not even parcelised up ?? Just wondering if anybody has had a similar situation happen to them and if they have any info .



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 19:24

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Message 10 of 42 in Discussion

back to the top



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
27/11/2011 20:41

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Message 11 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Basheeer.. My own thoughts and as I understand it for my own self...



1.. You signed a contract with a builder and had that contract drawn up via a solicitor/advocat and by what you say the property was built and you are now in that house. Thereby... You own the buildings and contents.



2.. All taxes being paid you then obtained your Kocan on a shared Kocan of twelve plots. So you now own 1/12 of that Kocan on which the house you live in stands. Ergo.. you own the house and land it is on.



3.. Memorandums were subsequently placed on properties of which builder had as yet not handed over the Kocan. This cannot effect you as you own both the house and land the house lies upon having obtained your Kocan. So any crdeitor can only lay claim against those properties the builder in the eyes of the law still owns ie those properties whose Kocan he still holds.. and here is the catch.. albeit he may have sold them... but for whatever reason not released the Kocan.

cont.



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
27/11/2011 20:55

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Message 12 of 42 in Discussion

cont...



Parcelisation occurs once all properties are sold and Kocans obtained by each householder. At this point and if all agree the whole Kocan of which everyone owns 1/12 may then be sub-devided into single Kocans as opposed to shared. (At a cost



My understanding is this makes no difference to a sale unless ofcourse there is a dispute say as to who owns what wall or if there is say a dispute on boundaries and thus one party or another may want parcelisation.



Going back on your thread.. I believe those in possession of Kocans for their houses can sleep relatively soundly but any who bought and are not in possession of said Kocan have some sleepless nights ahead.



Their first objective should be to check if memorandums were placed on their own properties or just those unsold.If only on those unsold they should be moving heaven and earth to meet with their builder to agree a way forward to obtain their Kocans before any further liabilities are placed.



Regards Joseph



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 20:58

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Message 13 of 42 in Discussion

Finally .. as Bradus wisely points out..



.. should there be memorandums on as yet unsold properties what prospective buyer would consider them as the mantra in trnc is becoming more and more .. no deeds.. no money.



Hope this helps, regards Joseph



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 21:14

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Message 14 of 42 in Discussion

thanks from what you say one of the villas of 1/11 with their title deeds and all taxes paid can sell their villa regardless if 2 of the 11 have issues therefore with or without parcelisation a property can be sold as the present status stands

as far as the 2 of the 11 are,they will not be able to sort the developers mess and the builders memorandams are on the 2 properties (theirs)only therefore are in limbo

where as the other 9 properties with their kocan and taxes paid including vat! can sell to another party regardless if the land has not been parcelised



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 21:42

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Message 15 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Basheer.



Yes you have it



Other issues ofcourse arise such as roads and common land etc but I would guess you have those sorted or at least in discussion. Regarding the memorandums do you know the bottom line ?



One further point... if and when parcelisation occurs then the local beledeyi would call on site to carry out a survey and any additions other than contracted in your sale contract from builder such as pools, sheds or extensions would have a bearing on your council tax, esp as I understand it covered additions eg shed or garage.



As I said earlier these are my thoughts thru similar experiences and I would guess the more info you can get from others the more you are armed to deal with your own situation. For as Bradus points out above so many of these situations are different on so many sites... hence her warnings.



You have to feel for the two owners who decided to wait thinking they were safe from such liabilties.



Regards Joseph



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 22:16

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Message 16 of 42 in Discussion

Good advice Joseph.



Basheer the two homes that have memorandums.........do you know how much the memorandums are for? Is it likely the owners will pay off the developers debt in order to get their deeds? Can your site keep an eye open as to what is happening with the properties? If the memorandum is paid off you can then go for full parcelisation asap.



Joseph, I too feel sorry for the 2 that waited. This is happening more and more with the downturn in the construction industry. I hope those reading this thread, who still do not have their deeds or parcelisation (worryingly some buyers are now holding on in the hope of a return to the 3% tax rate) take note and do all possible to get a swift transfer.



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 23:06

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Message 17 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Bradus, best regards



Re Paragraph 2..



Also heard people have been told it is ok to wait as the government is thinking of allowing people to obtain their deeds and going after the builder separely for outstanding taxes.



Two probs with this approach...



1.. Nothing to substantiate what they have "heard" so as such rumours?



2.. Always possible a cash strapped government decide to raise taxes ?.. as has already happened re the once in a lifetime transfer tax?



Keep up the good advice on here Bradus .. it is invaluable



Regards Joseph



TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
27/11/2011 23:26

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Message 18 of 42 in Discussion

I agree joseph Bradus is invaluable! she has knowledge along with commonsense!



The sadness for me and I am sure many is the complications of the TRNC Laws If there are any! they change on a daily basis! and soon no-one with any knowledge or commonsense will understand?



THEY HAVE WORKED THIS WAY FOR YEARS!



Thats what the TRNC Government do they make circles, so we all go up our own backsides :-( trying to make sense, of their corruption!



Mallard


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 09:15

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Message 19 of 42 in Discussion

Message 8 Basheer.

We are in a similar position and have to say we are getting more confused by the day but, please explain how you have a Kocan for the land and house if not everyone on the site have their shared Kocan? My understanding is that this is a pre-requisite before parcelisation is done and before your house can go on the Kocan.

Forgive me if I am missing something here.



Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 10:08

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Message 20 of 42 in Discussion

A title deed refers to the land and includes whatever is built on it although the construction may not be specified on it. This is an incomplete title deed.



Once construction of a house or site is finished, including infrastructure, the next step is to apply for Final Approval whereby the project is inspected by the District Office, Belediyesi and finally, the Lands Office. If there is more than one property, Final Approval must be obtained before an application can be made to separate the plots.



It would appear that the memorandum is on the remaining 2/11 shares which are still in the builder's name. These properties are at risk and no sane person should consider purchasing a property with such a encumbrance.



Many builders had no intention of ever getting Final Approval and separate title deeds; some encountered difficulties in doing so and some have honoured their contractual obligations. You need to find out which category your builder falls into.



cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 13:12

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Message 21 of 42 in Discussion

Molly comes up with the facts once again, well done you are a credit to this forum.



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 13:24

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Message 22 of 42 in Discussion

if i remember correctely the developer in 2008 took me to the belediye to transfer the account( water) to my name, he came back saying they want funds to clear for all 11 plots not sure now if it was the vat or some issue relating to make payment for works etc so he asked me to carrying the monthly payment in his name--as it would cost him loads and it was better left the same way -since we got our korcan we immediately transfered both beledyie and elect to our name with some cost but not much



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 13:47

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Message 23 of 42 in Discussion

I was informed by one estate agent, unless you have parcelisation you would not be able to sell to anyone that needs a mortgage, even though we have our kocan. Has anyone else heard of this?? This is for an apartment.



Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 14:51

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Message 24 of 42 in Discussion

Honeybee



That's my understanding also. I don't know of a bank who would lend on a shared title deed.



However, what I fail to understand is this; so many developers WERE ABLE to secure loans with "land only" title deeds. Years later when the "land" (property) is worth sooooo much more money because of the construction(s) on it and the poor duped buyers are fighting to keep their homes and accuse the banks of negligence, the banks insist that they had no knowledge of the buildings......



There are now so many properties with incomplete title deeds that the owners are finding it very difficult to sell. At one time it was not possible to sell shares, the division of the plots had to be done first. The only problem with this was the construction industry got impatient because of the time this took and they couldn't pocket the money fast enough and so the rules were "relaxed".



There are plenty of simply solutions if the powers that be want to find them.



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
28/11/2011 16:54

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Message 25 of 42 in Discussion

Message 24 - Do you have any idea of the cost of parcelisation. In our case to get the kocan we had to pay the builders tax (claiming they have no money!) so we have already paid out quite a bit. Also the builder has two apartments that are up for sale, the builder has no kocans on these apartments. I did hear that the builder now needs permission from the buyers who have got kocans before they can be sold? What a can of worms!



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 13:30

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Message 26 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Honeybee..



My understanding is parcelisation costs for villas are in the 2k range. However this was going back a bit and could well now be wrong. Also reading your post you are talking apartments which I would presume be on a different scale.



You say in your case you have your Kocan, if so, at least you are in a very strong position compared to those who do not and being in possession should make selling your apartment if you so wish a lot easier.



Again reading your post, I imagine it is the landowner who retained possession of all Kocans and simply "hired" a builder whereby he was to build the developement.



Finally on your last point re builder needing permission of those who possess their Kocans...

Say you have ten apartments two of which are unsold and eight buyers possess kocans.

The eight buyers are now the majority share holders (8/10s) and therefore under the law must agree to sell the remaining 2/10s.



cont...



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 13:37

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Message 27 of 42 in Discussion

cont...



In a sense they are now the majority shareholder, which was the power of attorney previously held by the builder from the landowner. For the builder this was really just a formality when he first started out selling but once the majority shareholding switched to owners... permission must be sought from them.



So again, he holds two votes and seeks permission say from 4 others as this now gives him a majority vote.

Again this should be a formality. All quite simple really



But again.. this is my understanding ... and it is most advisable to ask others on the forum who have already gone thru and completed the same process.



Hope this helps..



Regards Joseph



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 13:41

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Message 28 of 42 in Discussion

A final point.



You may well be thinking.. ok ... so do I have to ask permission from others if I decide to sell my holding.



The answer is no because you have your kocan!



Again.. my understanding.



Regards Joseph



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
29/11/2011 18:24

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Message 29 of 42 in Discussion

Thank you for this information Joseph, very helpful............ it is such a minefield, with so many conflicting scenarios!. We are eleven apartments 6 have kocans, 1 buyer does not, the landowner has 2 apartments, and the builder 2 apartments. I know the one buyer left is very unlikely to pay for the kocan, the builder has no kocans on the 2 apartments and not too sure about the landowner and his situation in all off this. I doubt we will ever get parcelisation, which will make selling the apartment difficult i guess. Thanks once again.



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 18:44

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Message 30 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Honeybee.. you are welcome.



Reading your last message I would say you have 6 owners with Kocans and 5 remain with the landowner as you say the builder does not hold any. The builder might simply have had P.O.A. to build and market the apartments. A quiet word with your landowner should clarify matters if need be.



Again non-parcelisation in itself should not make a difference if you ever wanted to sell unless there were differences with other owners regarding boundary lines or if you have shared maintenance costs with non payers etc. All presuming the site is finished and looking good



As I say, this is my experience and the more info you have the better to make youir own judgements.



Regards Joseph



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
29/11/2011 19:57

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Message 31 of 42 in Discussion

so in the end if parcelisation is not completed for whatever reason one cannot sell their villa till that is done

in our case 2 of the 11 dont have a kocan but holding permission to purchase ,so the parcelisation is on hold till that is completed

the developer has run abroad (bankrupt)and left the builders memoranding their property as the developer still owns the property ,without title deeds therefore it seems parcelisation is not going to take place for the moment

the two without title deeds need to sort the memorandum and if unable to meet the charge on the property will lose their villa to the builder who then i assume will obtain the title deeds for themselves and then maybe parcelisation may take place if the builder sold off the vills



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 20:05

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Message 32 of 42 in Discussion

Hi Honeybee.. you are welcome.



Reading your last message I would say you have 6 owners with Kocans and 5 remain with the landowner as you say the builder does not hold any. The builder might simply have had P.O.A. to build and market the apartments. A quiet word with your landowner should clarify matters if need be.



Again non-parcelisation in itself should not make a difference if you ever wanted to sell unless there were differences with other owners regarding boundary lines or if you have shared maintenance costs with non payers etc. All presuming the site is finished and looking good



As I say, this is my experience and the more info you have the better to make youir own judgements.



Regards Joseph



joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 20:12

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Message 33 of 42 in Discussion

Basheer..



You had it earlier , message 14, now you seem confused again?



In my opinion parcelisation does not prevent you from selling your property if you so wish. Why should it?



As Bradus is forever pointing out... no deeds no money..



You have your deeds (kocan) which puts you in a very strong position with any prospective buyer.



But remember it might well be the buyer who insists on an individual deed as opposed to a shared deed but you won't know this until you sell. But that is another matter.



Regards Joseph



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 21:44

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Message 34 of 42 in Discussion

I am confused, Years ago, for our own property, there was a long delay in getting our Kocan .The delay being due to parcelisation being held up. There was no question of getting Kocan until that was complete. Once that was done ,taxes etc were paid and we duly received Kocan in our name. Our neighbour and some others, for a while opted to not pay the taxes etc and was happy with that and having a shared title as he was selling anyway. Eventually he paid the taxes and got title as that was the only way ,he could sell.The estate agent also confirmed that as far as they , and purchasers were concerned ,shared title was not a Kocan .

So how does one get Kocan on land that has not been parcelised.



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
29/11/2011 22:08

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Message 35 of 42 in Discussion

Message 33. I think because so many people have experienced problems and lost everything, the new generation of buyers are wanting everything in place (and rightly so!) including parcelisation. Also if a mortgage is needed, the banks will not lend unless you have the full kocan (including parcelisation). So although you can sell, it becomes more difficult....



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 22:55

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Message 36 of 42 in Discussion

joseph sorry guess so much infor confused the outcome

seems a cash buyer is the only option to purchase a property with title deeds on a non-parcelised land

and I guess the lawyers should not create doubts for their client considering the fact the plans shows who owns what piece and there is no issue with parceling rights to bounderies and all 11 owners are happy -tell me I am still confused



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 23:14

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Message 37 of 42 in Discussion

girne 29 - i dont know, this is why i am asking these questions.......i thought paying x amount for a kocan (including builders proportion of taxes) would be it. But hey this is NC, there is more..... i am a little bit wiser because of Joseph and molleys posts................. but am still confused a bit, i think it depends on each delevopment......i do think however things are changing because of what has occured in the past!



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
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Message Posted:
29/11/2011 23:50

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Message 38 of 42 in Discussion

mess 14 and 15 seem are the answers



Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
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Message Posted:
30/11/2011 09:56

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Message 39 of 42 in Discussion

Joseph - there is no "majority" shareholder apart from the landowner/builder. The buyers that have their kocans each have 1/11th share.



Honeybee - you can sell with a share title deed. Once the sale is completed and before the new title deed can be issued, an advert will have to be placed in a local newspaper giving notice to the other shareholders.



If you sell with a share title deed, it is very common for the buyer's lawyer to ask for a retention or discount because the title deed is incomplete, i.e. the land is not parcelised and the construction is not registered on it. If you agree to a retention, you are effectively giving a permanent discount on the sale price because you (as an individual property owner) have very little control with regards to getting Final Approval and separate title deeds. There are so many problems that you could not possibly envisage, nor could you resolve them as an individual. Bear this in mind when setting your sale price - be aware.



Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
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Message Posted:
30/11/2011 10:08

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Message 40 of 42 in Discussion

The final cost of getting Final Approval and divided plots will depend on the amount of work needed on the site/and or building. If it is a site, do you have to get permanent electric, tarmac roads, fire hydrants, pavements, etc??



If a house buyer asked their builder to convert a bedroom to a garage or to cover/waterproof a previously open terrace then this will cause problems because the final construction will not correspond to the ORIGINAL plans and specifications. You will need to pay for new architect plans to reflect all changes made.



Finally, if it is simply a case that the landowner/builder did not bother to get separate title deeds (that was specified in your original Contract of Sale) the shareholders (in this case 9/11) can bring a class action against their Vendor - it only takes one person to represent the group but the cost can be shared.



basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
30/11/2011 10:54

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Message 41 of 42 in Discussion

example is greatstone the developer is residing in the uk now and classified bankrupt there is no case!



Honeybee


Joined: 09/09/2011
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
30/11/2011 11:11

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Message 42 of 42 in Discussion

Message 39/40 - Thank you for this info. The problem we have is, the builder has no money, so any costs incurred have to come from the purchasers/land owner. I will take onboard your comment re discount on the sale price to cover the cost of not having parcelisation. Although i do think it will be much harder to sell without parcelisation. We have electricity and water in individual names, we all had to pay quite a bit for the transformer, again to compensate for the builder running out of money!.



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