How many people have been refused Permission To Purchase?

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 07:27

I would like to try and collect some Data.



How many have been refused PTP Permission To Purchase?



For those who have been refused what was the main reason?



How many are still waiting for PTP and for how long?



Please email me using lockerley@hotmail.com Thank You.

AnthonySmith


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 455

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 07:29

Get in touch with Marian at the Homebuyers Pressure Group. I'm not sure whether there is any "data" has such, because book-keeping does not seem to be a skill of this government, but if anyone knows it will be her.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 08:06

Anthony,

Thank you for the advice. I just took up contact Marian but she is unable to release any figures without the buyers' permission, as what she is holding is classified s confidential.

John

scoobydoo


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 2434

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 08:19

That's a shame as I would have thought that as long as no names, addresses, phone numbers etc were divulged, the figures themselves would be ok.

johnnybgoode


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 12:18

details sent,

hope it helps you, as it's not done me any favour's

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 15:01

on Okut constuction site catalkoy



12 villas built 5 definates with ptp 2 refused army base the reason yet some of us are nearer then those refused.? havent heard yet 5

hope this helps

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 15:12

Perhaps if you looked at the time scales of the applications. Were those that have been refused later applications?

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 15:23

contracts were from 2005 til now for my post

Smity



Joined: 14/09/2009
Posts: 826

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 17:22

Details sent

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 17:48

I've been refused PTP (no reason given) on an apartment built on pre 74 Turkish title and near an army base.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 18:10

Same as Hector, except that no military base is visible.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 18:17

Aphrodite beach did anyone get theirs as I note Evergreen closed your thread regarding PTP refusal?,

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 19:26

Pre-74 Turkish Title is the reason. They will not grant PTP to foreigners anymore.



The refusal usually states 'Military Reasons' even if you are not anywhere near a base.

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 20:01

We are no where near military, near the centre of Lapta pre 74 apartment applied nov 2007 refused by Military!! in dec 2008... well it was a nice early xmas present !!

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 20:02

sorry should be applied Nov 2006

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
09/07/2010 21:18

msg 14,



A genuine question, do you have a paper from government stating "refused by Military"? Trying to put meat on the bone for the original question.



Our next door neighbour had a "refused by military", was told by solicitor. He pursued his case and had nothing to do with military, it was solicitor who had fouled up the application.... TWICE!!!!!

expatlady


Joined: 11/07/2010
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 09:16

I am thinking of buying a property with Pre-74 Turkish Title. No military in sigh. What is the best way to proceed? Just refuse transferring money until a PTP is issued?

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 09:57

so you think someone is going to wait maybe 2 years lol you on drugs even if you get refused its still your property to sell

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 09:58

expatlady/Msg 17: 'What is the best way to proceed? Just refuse transferring money until a PTP is issued?'



The short answer is: 'Yes!'



To add to that: 'Absolutely!'



We bought [genuine] pre '74 for what we believed were all the right reasons after we were [* unknowingly]simply lied to all along.



* 'The cat was not out of the bag' re pre '74 when we bought in 2005 - now it most definitely is!



If I could have been told, or warned, that pre '74 was being reserved for TC's since the Annan Plan referendum, I would have accepted that as fair enough and looked elsewhere - but, as I say, I was blatantly lied to with a series of tempting euphemisms - read LIES!

airy____fairy


Joined: 14/06/2008
Posts: 813

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 09:59

expatlady



re mes 13 -

''Pre-74 Turkish Title is the reason. They will not grant PTP to foreigners anymore.''



I think ballyboffin is correct - that foreigners are not given PTP for this title

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:04

msg 17,



Is this a resale or new build?

If a resale and current owner is foreigner you "should" be granted PTP, the law will not allow acceptance and then refusal.



If new build, all the current info points to fact you will not be granted PTP and you may not know final answer for several years.



If you pay deposit and then pull out you will not get your deposit returned even if someone writes into the contact a clause to that effect.



Ask yourself, if you are selling a property and someone asks you to wait several undeterminate years before completion, what would you do?



You may get varinces on this answer but I am sure most will follow similar vein. Sorry.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:06

expatlady if your that worried dont buy in the med anywhere all the same,dont se the problem buy now it will be sorted out 1 way or the other inside 2 years, dont see the drama,only reason for kocan is to stop the builder re mortgaging the property

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:13

Kevi, re msg 18,

You said "its still your property to sell "

If only that were true - unfortunately the property still belongs to the person or Company in whose name the Kochan is registered - they remain the legal owners until they transfer the Kochan to the purchaser.

That is why people's houses are auctioned from beneath them to pay debts that builders and landowners have run up.

It is absolutely crucial to ensure that you will receive your Kochan - without it you are at the mercy of anyone who seeks to reclaim a debt from the actual Kochan holder.

Even if your Seller is absolutely honourable, and has no debts, can you rely on his successors having the same attitude when he dies, and not 'realising their assets?

That is the position that I find myself in, and it is not a nice, secure feeling, I can assure you.

If you have actually got your Kochan, then you are very LUCKY, and I am pleased for you, but make no mistake - it is simply that - LUCK! - not cleverness...

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:23

Catalkoykid



Msg 18.."even if you get refused its still your property to sell "



So that's all right is it?

Go to all the time,trouble and expense of buying a property in TRNC and then have to sell it( more than likely at a loss ) because you are arbitrarily refused PTP after several years waiting?





Msg 22.."dont see the drama,only reason for kocan is to stop the builder re mortgaging the property "



If you don't see the drama you must be watching a different programme !

What a ridiculous statement.

The kocan,or title deed,proves that in law you are the owner of the property you have paid for.

Without it,the original owner/developer/landowner is still the legal owner.

By registering your sales contract,you can hopefully prevent the current owner taking out mortgages or loans on "your" property,but it will NOT stop people to whom he owes money taking a memorandum against "his" property which can mean the property is auctioned from under your feet without your knowledge.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:23

Kevin, one more thought...

Do the people who paid in full for their properties in Amaranta Valley share your optimism about being able to sell their properties, despite not having Kochans?? - http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/40218.asp

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:28

Keith if you have the "S"number(S 123 2010) from the land registry for the transfer are you safe?

I'm told that the Kochan will follow in three months

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:43

msg 18, it will all be sorted in 2 years.



You really are living on another planet. You certainly do not havea clue about the PTP and kocan scenario as it stands now.



If you do not get PTP, you do not get a kocan, so while waiting 2/3/4 years someone could take a mortgage or sell the property. As for selling without a kocan, yes in theory but you must have the permission of the person who holds the kocan, who by now could also be living elsewhere.



Unfortunatley this is a very serious topic and as others have already identified the original question is not being answered by someone who knows nothing about buying here now.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:48

simple dont buy, keep your money in the bank

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:52

keith i meant buying a completed property, a resale that already had a kocan issued,not off plan i think you must be stupid to give anybody anywhere the money b4 its finished thats goes for anywhere

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 10:53

catalkoykid...msg 28



Run out of reasoned arguments?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:10

catalkoy kid...msg 28



"simple dont buy, keep your money in the bank "



Thinking about it , that is the best advice you could give anyone.



By all means come to Northern Cyprus....but RENT,don't buy !

There are hundreds of properties available for rent at prices you wouldn't get anywhere else in the MED.

For £400/month you can get a nice villa with pool.



Why risk your life savings on buying here?



Until the laws are changed , RENT your dream home, bank your hard earned savings, and enjoy a less stressful life in the TRNC.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:43

Kevin, re msg 29,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant - however, you still appear to be advising people to pay their money up-front, and then wait 2 years to see if they will get PTP (and you can't assume that just because someone else was granted PTP on a property some years before, that YOU will be granted it...) and THEN hope that the seller will actually transfer the Kochan - before he dies, that is, or before some debtor takes him to court and obtains a judgement against all 'his' property, including the house that you paid him good money for...

I'm sorry mate, but there just is not an easy answer to this - I wish that there was!

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:46

yes it would be nice if the system changes, BUT its not so pay your money and take your chance, if its a to bigger risk for you, or others buy somewhere you feel safe,this system will not change soon of that im sure of that

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:52

We purchase pre 74 Turkish title which was a resale property. The previous owners were expats, we had no problems in getting our ptp or kochan.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:58

how many people have had problems from buying off a expat on a resale property,and having the land mortgaged



afterwards.????????????????????????????????????????????//

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 11:59

Pay your money and take your chance!!

Would anyone really be stupid enough to do this?



If the answer is yes, then I am currently selling my home in England for a discount price. I expect you to pay up front and if I feel like it, I might give you the deeds BUT if I don't feel like it I won't. You can live in it though.I am just so generous.



Any offers?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:02

blade...msg 34



Good to hear you've had no problems.



Can I ask when this was....ie when did you apply for PTP ?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:04

catalkoykid....msg 35



So are you advising people to ONLY buy resale properties that are owned by expats?

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:06

mess 36,everyone or nearly everyone in the trnc,spain,roc, all have

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:07

I would like to try and collect some Data.



Thank you for the advice. I just took up contact Marian but she is unable to release any figures without the buyers' permission, as what she is holding is classified s confidential.



PLEASE TELL US WHY YOU WOULD LIKE THIS DATA & WHAT YOU INTEND TO DO WITH IT SORRY BUT IF MARIAN WONT GIVE IT THEN DONT THINK WE SHOULD.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:08

im asking the question, only problems i have heard of is buying from builders am i wrong ??????

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:08

My advocate confirmed my PTP on friday it took 3 years, they have e-mailed the vendor to see if he is in a position to transfer title the system is a joke

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 12:26

Blackpoolfan,



and therein lies the problem.........................e-mailed the vendor to see if he is in a position to change.



On full payment he should have been required by law to hand them over. Whilst ever this loophole exists the opportunity for fraud and dishonesty will remain. Good luck, I hope you are successful.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 13:03

Hello Mary re message 40.



Thank you for at least reading the forum. I have asked the simple question and am trying to collate some data so that I can personally lobby through my own contacts and write articles for wide distribution and maybe, just maybe, it may help a little to push this matter forward.



The only reason Marian can't publicly give out the information with names etc is because she has received them in confidence, that's all. I don't need your names or addresses, just basic facts if you are willing to provide them.



Thank You Mary for responding. God Bless. John

expatlady


Joined: 11/07/2010
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 13:52

Well; it is a sale from "a local". And yeah; I see the problem of letting the seller wait until I get a PTP.



One estate agent ( who was quite "upfront" and honest and told me they did not issue permits anymore ) ..said we could "fix" it by issuing the deed in a local trusted lawyers name...but I don´t like that solution. It would mean that I for the forseeable future would be dependent on this person.

expatlady


Joined: 11/07/2010
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 13:53

One more thing: I heard about the registering of sales contract, which would prevent the current owner taking out mortgages or loans on "my" property.



But nobody told me of "memorandums".



Is there not *any* legal way to stop people the "old owner" owes money taking a memorandum against "my" property?

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:03

You would possibly need 'expert legal advice' in order to answer these questions, but: -

Could you, yourself take out a 'memorandum' (or get a court to grant one, whatever the procedure is) against the Vendor/ the Vendor's property / land (whichever it is), in return for giving him the money...?

Would this protect you, or at least take precedence over any other 'memorandums' which might be placed on him / his assets in the future? Or would you only get say, a one quarter share if someone got a judgement against him for 3 times the amount of your payment/memorandum?

It's a minefield, isn't it?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:20

Keith....some good points and food for thought there.



We asked our advocate about Memoranda and she explained that unlike here in the UK where there are preferential creditors , in TRNC it is strictly first come,first served ie whoever gets the memorandum or injuction in first gets the first call on the proceeds from the bankruptcy/auction.



By way of example...if a property had 3 memoranda on it....the first for £80K , the second for £20 K and the third for £50 k.....and the property was auctioned and realised £100K.....then the first would get his full £80K,the second would get his £20K and the third would get nothing.



I reckon I'm correct in my interpretation of this but any legal eagles feel free to correct me.



I believe there is also an option of putting an injunction on "your" own property to place yourself higher up the pecking order !

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:28

cronus,



The Estate Gents Law was supposed to protect property buyers from any future encumberance.



Is a "memorandum" not an encumberance?



Oxford dictionary definition of encumberance...something that encumbers.....to be a burden to, to hamper.



wyn

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:32

message 48



my solicitor basically told me the same that a court case may be won amd a memorandum placed on the property it could end up eventually that its auctioned off to pay the damages you won for your own property that you paid for in the first place! and yes first come first served!!



You can put an injunction on but all that means is youre putting a hold on it until you have started your court case plus if youre contract is registered at the landregistry this should ,as advised by the said land registry, act as an injunction.



there really is no way out of the mess until someone from the government steps in or you do a wheeling dealing dealer with the holder of the title deed but have to be careful as the fact they wont hand them over means even with a deal they could still take money and run!!

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:38

So if it is done on a first come first served basis my theory should work then -



This would need to be clarified before putting into practice but if purchasers put a charge on the property until such time that their PTP is granted and Kocan transfered at the offset of signing any contract wouldn't this take precedence over any future memorandum.







I know this is common practice followed in the TRNC when a developer gives a land owner properties in exchange for his land.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:40

Cronus/Bradus,



Heres one for you!



Some of the legal advice I have received is that I could make an application to the Court to be regarded by The Courts as a



Beneficial owner. You will recall I paid 100% of monies due under my contract in May 09 (after forgiving £6500 in contract penalties.)



If granted I would be protected against " memoranda"," injunctions", as the court would deem that the property was held by the builder IN TRUST on my behalf. I would also be protected by any future encumberance, including the builder going into liquidation.



Now this route seems to be the perfect answer. Why arnt all the advocates reccommending it?



Guess its a matter of how the courts interpret the law?



wyn

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:41

Cooper....that was what I was trying to imply,but it sounds too simple doesn't it?

Probably just wishful thinking on our part !



Maybe the ever helpful Elko can clarify this point?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 14:44

Wyn,



the memorandums are being taken out by people that the vendor owes money to. So, as such, the vendor is not taking out an encumbrance, people outside the contractual agreement are. This is why everyone who buys is at risk. On average it takes about 2-4 years before people get their title deeds. Anything can happen whist playing this waiting game.



The estate agents law only seems to have protected against the vendor taking out a mortgage.Legally, morally and ethically the contract which states no encumbrances on the property should be legally binding. Unfortunately we are not dealing with a legal system that ensures laws are implemented, nor are moral and ethical attributes always evident. To top it all there are different interpretations of the law from the legal advocates and it is applied in very different ways. In other words total confusion reigns. Do you know who has taken out the memorandum on your property?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 15:03

cooper,

It seems such a common sense approach. But I wonder under what conditions you are allowed to place a charge on the property? If it could be done as a matter of course, then this would almost certainly provide some protection.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 16:35

Hi Bradus,



Most unusually I do not agree. The Estates Agents Law says no further encumberances. It does not define whether it is by the

Vendor or others outside the initial contractrual agreement.



There is a case in Girne Court scheduled for Monday, wherin the effectiveness of a "memorandum" outranking the rights of Beneficial Ownership should be tested. It should be interesting to many, although I feel it most unfair, that one couple have had to stand the worry and cost. of creating a precedent, in what as only be described as an inadequate legal system.



LET ME SAY AGAIN, THAT IS THE JOB OF GOVERNMENT.



wyn

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 17:02

wyn



will be interesting to see the result of the court case tomorrow. If the beneficial ownership outranks the memorandums could it be a way forward. Lets keep our fingers crossed and will be in Girne tomorow will see if I can find out anything thanks for that info

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 17:20

honestie,



Do you really believe that these poor people will get a definitive answer tomorrow



Too much money for the legal pariahs not to drag this on for another 5 years. Shameful!



wyn

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 20:09

Bradus Re Msg55, this was taken from my GUIDE TO PURCHASING PROPERTY IN THE TRNC given to me by Naomi Mehmet back in 2006 - as standard practice, we always try to negotiate with the vendor the insertion of a clause into the contract allowing you to sell the property before taking title to the property. We can also provide advise on other ways to secure your interest until you receive the title deeds, for example by registering a charge over the property.



After reading this i feel sure it could be done as a matter of course, you would obviously need the vendors agreement, but if he doesn't agree then you just don't buy.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 22:35

Cooper, you are right. Not only is it mentioned on the leaflet you mentioned but I also found this too on another advocates web site.



If the necessary permits from the authorized offices are not ready by the time the title deed is to be transferred, the Alien person and/or Company may have to take some measures to reserve his/its rights because in such a case, although the Alien has paid all the amount due, the title deed of the immovable property is still under the name of the previous owner. The Alien person and/or Company can mortgage the relevant immovable property in his own favor at the relevant District Land Office through his advocate. That way, until the permit process is complete, the sale and/or transfer to another person and/or its being put under any liability of the property, which is still registered under the name of the previous owner, can be avoided.



Any one ever done this?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
11/07/2010 22:47

Wyn,

You are most likely correct. I'm just trying to look at all the differing interpretations and possibilities.I am always happy to post even if all it does is provoke discussion. I find this is how good suggestions come about.

With regards to contracts and encumbrances, our latest one stated:



"the property is free from all impediments, encumbrances, liens and adverse claims"



Surely that covers everything?



The more you read the more confusing it becomes!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 00:35

Bradus,



I dont know if you picked up from an earlier posting, but there is a case scheduled for Monday (tomorrow) where a "memorandum" holder is asking the courts permission to take the property to auction. The defence is to ask the Court to

refuse the application and recognise the purchaser as the beneficial owner of the property, and therefore any incumberance placed on the property is ineffective. If successful the kochan holder would be held by the Court to be merely holding the property in trust. This can only happen if the full contractrual payment schedule has been met and the kochan not issued to the purchaser.



This is as I understand it. The ramifications of a successful defence and an acknowledgement of Beneficial Ownership would

have a very significant impact on many of the dilemmas currently haunting property buyers in The TRNC.





wyn

It would not of course affect The Pre 74 Turkish Title dilemma that many now face.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 01:07

Will we get feedback from tomorrows case? I bet it will take months to get a verdict?

I note that in a previous case where the buyer had paid in full but a mortgage had been taken out by the developer, the court ruled that the mortgage took precedent over the signed and agreed contract.I found this unbelievable. It would appear that the way forward for new buyers is to take out a charge on the property to prevent mortgages/memorandums from happening.



Some advocates recommend this but seems it is rarely implemented, WHY?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 09:20

So is there a trend of only GC land being allowed to be purchased?



Is there any English person on here who has bought pre 74 TC deeds?

anastacia


Joined: 21/05/2009
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
01/09/2010 17:29

As far as I am aware Registering a Charge over the property on covers you for the money you have paid to the builder on purchase.

This offers no solution to people who bought a few years ago and are still waiting on Kocan/PTP and are living in their properties.



The Charge would only mean that the property would still be sold off and you would receive the money that you paid, if there was enough to pay you back after the sale.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
01/09/2010 17:35

interesting point people i know who have been refused have now got the ptp after reapplying

army was the problem and they havent moved so it seems very random for ptp