North Cyprus property investment

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 10:34

Got this posting off an overseas property investment just as the latest Orams verdict was made:



What great news this is!

At last, justice for the people who had to flee their homes and leave most of their possesions behind when Turkey invaded and occupied North Cyprus.

The poor fools who 'invested' in stolen property and land. Fancy being stupid enough to buy off squatters, they deserve to lose every penny.

North Cyprus is a pariah state, occupied by rogues and fraudsters and recognised only by Turkey itself who are the occupying force.

If you are daft enough to think you could make a quick buck by buying something that wasn't that persons to sell, why didn't you also invest in Kuwait when Iraq occupied it?

The sooner the beautiful Island of Cyprus is re-unified the better and Turkey and the occupied part of North Cyprus should be shunned by the EU and the rest of the world until that happens with compensation paid by the Turkish Government.....cont'd/

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 10:36

cont'd...



to all those affected and their decendants.





I'm interested to hear comments from people who have already invested here and secondly from people who are considering investing here - would statements like that put you off ??

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 10:40

A reply from another poster:



Regardless of who one believes is right, Turkey and the unrecognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus have since 1983 tried to gain international legitimacy their actions in northern Cyprus, and for the very existence of the TRNC as a political entity. These attempts have been unsuccessful, and given the entry of Cyprus into the EU, and given the ruling of the EJC in the Orams case, attempts to legitimise the illegal expropriation of immovable assets within an EU member state are doomed to fail so long as the European Union is a going concern.



Worse still for foreign property investors, under the laws of the Republic of Cyprus they are liable for damages for having illegally demolished, developed, and occupied land owned by expelled Cypriots in northern Cyprus. This means that regardless of a political settlement in Cyprus, their assets - including even UK Government pensions - can and will be seized by courts everywhere in the European Union cont

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 10:40

cont'd....



in order to satisfy judgements entered against them by courts in the Republic of Cyprus. So it is not just a matter of an investor losing their investment in Cyprus - they stand to have their assets anywhere within the reach of the legal system of all EU member states seized if they are sued by the legitimate owners of their properties in the Republic of Cyprus.



Putting aside the principle of caveat emptor, the government of the United Kingdom is by neglect complicit in this scam: despite repeated diplomatic requests by the Republic of Cyprus, UK authorities made no effort to stem the tide of advertising and marketing of illegal properties offers targeting the UK public the way they otherwise would have if they had known that a particular investment scheme was fraudulent.



Property investors have been warned.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 10:43

and another posting......





Politics aside, the point current and potential property investors should note well: one thing is for certain - when it comes time for the two sides to strike a bargain, the first group to be disenfranchised will be foreigners who illegally bought property. The Greek side will be out for blood, and the Turkish side will not hesitate to offer up "wealthy foreign speculators" on a platter in order to gain concessions for their own people.





Back to Neg Nick - Having bought here myself, i find the last bit particularly worrying....

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 11:15

Talk is cheap as they say,its the actions that make the difference.



Where I was born,they say,"YOU SHOULD NOT BE SCARED OF A DOG THAT DOES NOTHING BUT BARKING"



Unfortunatly,in some cases it works!



In my case,"BRING THEM ON."

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 14:15

mess 6 - i agree, its the dog that doesn't bark that you should worried about !

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 19:05

not one comment !



You lot all burrying your heads in the sand then ?

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 19:37

no one is taking my property.i will leave in a coffin first.and the people who come to take it will leave the same way.thats not a threat thats a promise

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 19:41

mess 9 - that's more like it...



Can i have your parrot ?

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 19:48

Nick there are 100,000 properties in the South without deeds 30k of them non Cypriot

The old saying people in glass houses should not throw stones applies me thinks

As to where the property settlement lies post Orams is with the properties commission end of

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 20:02

Mess 11 - good point Wanderer....

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 21:48

Hi Nick,



These statements are weeks old and have all been on the board before. they have all been thought on cogitated and digested, regurgitated and spat out. I don't know anyone who is particularly worried about them. There is never going to be a settlement, lots of greek cypriots are not going to come looking for their lost land and suing for it back and if they do I for one will think about it then. Enjoy what you have now.



The butlers wife

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 22:35

Nick me old mucker,

The words de-ja-vous spring to mind here.This sort of regurgitated propaganda rears its head from time to time and is done to wind up those that have bought property in the North.I must admit though that everytime i read this sort of stuff it really does get my pulse racing and indeed succeed in pissing me off,so well done to the arseholes that write this crap,

Paul.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 22:45

Its amazing how so many people know exactly whats going to happen come the glorious day,

but a point of fact is they know jack s**t.



Is it just a few "privilleged" southies that are given upto the minute briefings on the talks or as per usual spouting bile.

ozankoymum


Joined: 10/01/2009
Posts: 359

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 23:13

In my unimportant opinion, I stongly believe that intervention against 'terrorist groups' killing turkish settlers was needed in 1974, but the droves people other than the Cypiots that originally lived here then flocked to inhabit, take 'ownership of' land and sell on, seems to have been the major cause of the problem.



I stongly believe that many 'innocent cypriots' have been wrongly forced out of their homes and land (on both sides). If someone knocked on your mothers door and told her that it has been decided she is to leave her property land and possesions and move to Scotland... how would you feel, and then to find out someone has come from another Island, sold your land????? how would you feel?????



Northern Ireland has suffered intercommunal strife over many years yet none have been forced out of their properties.



Can I only add that never ever have i heard a Turkish Cypriot bad mouth a RoC and never have I heard an RoC bad mouth a Turkish Cypriot, it seems to me to be

ozankoymum


Joined: 10/01/2009
Posts: 359

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 23:15

perpetuated by non citizens...



It is such a sad story, and I dont think that it will ever heal.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 00:10

Clayton



Loosing your property is not the risk well not in the short term anyway as long as the status quo in Cyprus continues.



Any claims for componsation can be made against assets held in EU countries so no need to order the coffin

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 00:10

the greeks would have you believe that these issues started in 1974 with an 'invasion' by the turks of turkey.



However they gloss over the eoka days of 1960 and the many turks that were killed and indeed british troops that were killed by eoka 'fighters' sniping or stopping travelling unarmed turkish cypriots. As with many minorities the turkish cypriots were discriminated against but in this case quite openly. There were signs in the 60's in the cafe's of kyrenia 'no dogs' 'no turks'. The gc term for the turks was shilo turko, or turkish dog.



the reality is that since 1974 no one has suffered death, yes people on both sides have lost land, this is nothing new, ask the palestinians.



However there is no point in living in the past they cannot continue to hanker after a united cyprus dream that simply did not work. We are all living the solution right now and the reason that it does not suit the gc's is that they have not achieved their aim of cyprus as a greek island.



contd

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 00:21

the fundamental problem with the orams case is that lawyers cannot impose a legal solution to a political problem.



I am not worried by the orams case, northern cyprus is a good investment



as a last point - the thing that really pisses off the gc's is that they wanted to get rid of the tc's and they opened the door to the turks from turkey. they may have had a chance of getting rid of us one day lets face it we were a seriously small minority - however they know they will never get rid of the turks from a land they spilt blood to make safe for both turks and greeks

ozankoymum


Joined: 10/01/2009
Posts: 359

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 08:37

Thats my point, Im not politically aware and havent gone to great lengths to educate myself on it because there are always two sides to every coin and each side will always portray 'their truth'. At the end of the day, the vast majority of people on both sides were good innocent people who lost out.



I just refuse to become part of that army of folk who demonise south Cyprus and its people. It wasnt my war, it wasnt my people, and I wasnt here to experience what these people went through.



Apart from the people who served here to regain peace, everyone else has been brainwashed by this story to continue the hatred.



Let it go.. you cant change history, only shape our future.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 09:24

Statements such as...."the government of the United Kingdom is by neglect complicit in this scam", just make me aware that these people are clutching at straws.



Sure, the first statement will make people think twice about buying property here. However the property market here is'nt exactly dead. I know 4 people that have sold in the last few weeks and they were not Turkish title properties.



I refuse to believe that the Turkish government will 'stab us in the back' by "offering up "wealthy foreign speculators" on a platter in order to gain concessions for their own people"



Scaremongering again in my opinion.

briano


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 09:33

The problem I find with Cypriots, in discussing the Cyprus Problem, is that when you ask them who to blame, it is always 'them' and never 'us'. From what they tell me, NO Cypriot was to blame, it was entirely the fault of: Greece/Turkey/UK/US with Kissinger actually leading the Turkish invasion!



However, the original topic was about property investment; as an outsider it appears to me, from what I read here and elsewhere, that the Market is very quiet. Most of the posts on this thread have been about historical matters or 'they will have to carry me out of my home'; no-one has really offered a clear view on the state of the property as an investment.



briano

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 09:48

briano. As I stated in y message 25, the property market isn't actually 'dead'. For sure it's very quiet - but then the property market in the UK is very quiet.



Statements like the one made in the first post will definately put some people off - but not all people will be put off by it.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 09:51

Bill,

The property market in the U.K. went up by one and a half % last month,

Paul.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 09:54

Yes Paul, but overall it's still very queit.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 10:05

i'm certainly not put off by all the statements,i just want a nice holiday home and maybe move over when the kids have flown the nest,if and when they ever sort it out i'll cross that bridge when i get to it,if it means a compensation agreement,i'd be happy to pay my bit providing it was reasonable.I hope they do come to an agreement,but i just cant see it happening personally.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 10:19

Just another quick point.



A lot of the damage to the property industry in the TRNC is actually self inflicted. Title deed issue aside the lack of specific performance laws, as pointed out by Ismet, as well as a lack of building control, lack of infrastructure and some cases houses being built with no permission. All of these issues have also played their part in the demise of the construction industry. Many buyers have been held to ransom and end up paying builders taxes etc just so that they can get what is rightfully theirs-----the title deeds!



Furthermore an administration which has a huge budget deficit looks to Turkey to be bailed out. Why not clear the PTP backlog and collect the tax money that is owed on the houses already built and occupied which must run into tens of millions of £££££££'s

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 16:31

Statements like the first quote from NN's source are all too clearly malicious propagandist garbage, the same nonsense that has been spouted on many prior occasions in many and varied forums, and would put off no-one with a couple of neurons to bang together.



The second source merely uses better grammar and vocabulary to attempt the same kind of scaremongering. He even claims to know something nobody else has a clue about, viz. "This means that regardless of a political settlement in Cyprus, their assets - including even UK Government pensions - can and will be seized by courts everywhere in the European Union...". Regardless of a political settlement?? Even Blind Freddy can see that a political settlement of any kind would remove the land ownership problem for good.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 16:39

I bought my lovely 4-year-old villa in Esentepe (not 40-year-old) before the Orams ruling came down, and was initially disturbed, until I realised that I wasn't part of the EU, and seemingly unthreatened by potential litgation against property in my home country.



But even so, there are I'm sure a great many people like me who bought in TRNC for the peacefulness, clear air, clean water and nice neighbours...and I don't mean only my ex-pat British neighbours either, but all the people I've met so far in the village. It had nothing to do with looking for easy pickings, taking advantage of poor displaced GCs or trying to make a quick buck on a cheap investment. My wife and I want to make our home here...it's that simple.



So no, vitiolic nonsense such as you've quoted, NN, didn't put me off, nor will it cause me to lose sleep.

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 20:27

I have tried not to respond to this post but I am afraid that I need to add my opinion. When we first came to TRNC in 1999 and decided to buy property here 6 years ago, we had to join the queues of British buyers who MOBBED the Estate Agents then, hoping to buy cheap holiday or investment houses.



We came with our homework done and were only interested in buying a pre-74 title, considered even then as the only safe option. The Estate Agents were advising that Exchange Title was also safe, all that would happen if the island re-united would be that people would have to pay compensation at 1974 rates ????.

After being tempted by much bigger and cheaper properties with more land, we decided that we would buy the pre-74 house that we now own and Yes, our Kochan has been in our name since 2006.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 20:32

So, Ballyboffin, am I correct in assuming you made your PTP application pre '94; i.e. before the Annan Plan referendum?

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 21:17

No John, we lodged our application in 2005.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 21:23

So Rottolover, basically you are saying 'I'm alright jack.' "was initially disturbed, until I realised that I wasn't part of the EU, and seemingly unthreatened by potential litgation against property in my home country."

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 21:51

Hi Hector,



Did you just stop at that part of my post to have a spray, or did you read the rest of it?



Time for a nice lie down...

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 21:53

Should add that at lot of the posters on this should really do research before posting their comments.



Message 17 ozankoymum. Sorry Becky.



Quote... 'Northern Ireland has suffered intercommunal strife over many years, yet none have been forced out of their properties'



IT HAS HAPPENED AGAIN TODAY. A family who are Catholic living for 40 years together with Protestant neighbours have been forced by thugs from their home in Ballymoney Co Antrim.



We ourselves recieved a petrol bomb in 1975 at our business and apt above with the warning from the UVF that we had 24 hours to leave. There was no religious dispute, we are Protestant but my crime was to offer assistance to a soldier aged 18 who was burnt in one of the "Altercations" between the British Army and the UVF. For the uninformed the BA were enemies from time to time with the Loyalist Brigade in NI.



In 1990 we were again forced from our home for a time when the IRA bombed the Forensic Lab 500 mtrs away from our house.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 22:22

Do you all believe what you read? surely not or we would be topping ourselves at a rate of knotts and the samaritans would go into meltdown. Who knows what is going to happen? not one of you, speculation breeds uncertainty and un-rest. These posts are nothing but propoganda and scaremongering put into the big mixing bowl that is the TRNC. Relax and enjoy your properties that you paid for in good faith and worked hard to purchase and deal with it when it happens as it's alot easier to deal with fact than the current state of fantasy.

Good Luck to all...........

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
28/08/2009 23:00

Blackpoolfan,



the problem with not believing all you read is that you bury your head in the sand and fail to stop the damages at an early stage. We all try to be optimistic and live in hope but some take this to the extreme. I have followed this forum for quite a few years now and have seen peoples' initial postings full of excitement and absolute confidence that they have picked the right builder and advocate and that the estate agent holds their interests at heart. This then degenerates into uncertainty and concern and then finally when reality hits we see the anger and frustration. Perhaps even guilt for not having listened and being so dismissive of advice that ruined our dreams.



I wish people had scared me a bit more and then I might not have bought in the TRNC.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 10:41

oy ! - don't blame me - i'm just the messenger...

ozankoymum


Joined: 10/01/2009
Posts: 359

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 11:34

Ballyboffin



Oh thats just awful, its crazy that in our nation this is still happening in modern day, I was only stating that as far as I was aware there hadnt been thousands of people forced to permentantly leave their properties, land and livlihoods behind (on both sides), I stand corrected if that is the case in Northern Ireland.



But I only relate the intercommunal strife here during the 50's 60's and 1974 to Northern Ireland because it is the only situation within my lifetime that is closer to my understanding than Kosovo etc that I can relate it to to try and gain some level of understanding of it.



But again what happened today, this family who have happily alongside their neighbours have been driven out by THUGS!! again a mindless minority.

ozankoymum


Joined: 10/01/2009
Posts: 359

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 11:43

But with regard to the original thread, I totally agree with STUBBS..



We came here with the full intention of buying but were advised by friends to rent for the first year, which I am so so thankful for that one piece of advice, as we almost put our name to a off plan project in Esentepe.



We then decided that we would be best buying a pre 1974 resale that we could see finished with roads and amenities to eliminate the builders problems that people seemed to be suffering.



I am not actually put off purchasing because of the Orams case or any other such GC/EU problem.



I have been put off by the problems the majority of people have gaining PTP, Kocans, residency etc which is all TRNC related problems.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 12:34

I applied for PTP on my (indisputably genuine) pre '74 Turkish Title property in August 2005 - PTP was refused.



What a pack of thieving, lying so & so's - what chance to sell my property now?



Come on all you TC's looking for a 4bdrm, 3 bath, c/w large swimming pool, well & summer house in a prime TC location (walk to Ship Inn or Lemar) with private road frontage.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 12:53

Tenakoutou.....can I hazard a guess that you were refused on the grounds of proximity to a military base,even though you appear to be nowhere near one?



You are correct in that selling on to a TC would seem to be the only option if you don't want to deceive another innocent Brit mug and pass on the problem.

Although it may seem that this would severely limit your market, I believe most TC's are only looking for Pre-74 Turkish Title Deeds having steered well clear of the so-called "Exchange" deeds which carry their own well documented problems.



Maybe advertising it in a London based Turkish Cypriot publication would reap results and entice people to come home ?

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 13:17

Tenakoutou,



It seems to me that getting the PTP on a Pre-74 Turkish property was a lottery. We got ours along with our British neighbour but 2 other neighbours have been refused.



I would agree with cronos that selling to a TC would be the only option for now, as it would be in our case should we decide to sell because PTP may not be granted to a foreign buyer. We have even been contacted by Estate Agents who have clients, presumably TC or English TC who are only interested in Pre-74 Turkish Title Deeds, which are now getting a bit scarce.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 13:28

Ballyboffin.....I think it was a lottery,but now the odds are even worse than that.



You got yours at just the right time (end 2006 ?).....since then the rules have changed....and as is the way in TRNC, these rules are unwritten and no-one will come forward and admit to the policy,but all the estate agents and advocates know this to be the case.



If you don't mind,could you give examples of Estate Agents who have TC or English TC clients waiting for Pre-74 Property,as this may be useful in my own situation?



Thanks.

Ballyboffin


Joined: 25/08/2007
Posts: 903

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 13:50

cronos

I would think that most Estate Agents have clients who are only interested in Pre-74 Property. If you contact the established Agents such as Ian Smyth, Remax etc. they may be able to help.



Good Luck.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 13:54

Thanks Ballyboffin.....but it was the "TC or English TC clients" element that I was interested in,to avoid passing any PTP problems onto other Brits/foreigners.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 15:36

It has always been the case that property investment in TRNC is not without risk.

Risk is present in most peoples daily lives.

Any investor from overseas particularly should thouroughly investigate the TRNC, its history as well as the history of property in line for investment.

The ROC stance is very clear. The fact is that many persons were displaced and disadvantaged in the 60's and 70's. No single side has any patent upon suffering or loss.

Measures are in place to compensate displaced and disadvantaged Cypriots. The ROC continues to seek restitution and the foreign investor is the soft target. I know of no investor that has gone out to deprive anyone of any property. The notion of stolen property is not justifiable, given the fact that Cypriots have in the large moved on and there are no real refugees in the sense of homlessness and poverty.

The de-facto problem is now a political one and for politicians to sort. Civil litigation will not and cannot provide fair solution.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 15:51

WAZ...the risk element in buying "exchange" title property for which a GC still has deeds is long known and well documented.



But WHY should there be any risk at all attached to buying Pre-74 Turkish Title property,by which I mean that foreigners are being denied title deeds?



It is a shameful situation that the government are prepared to give foreigners title deeds for land and property that already belongs to someone else,ie the displaced GC original owner , but won't transfer title deeds for TC land and property to anyone other than a TC,despite allowing us to go through the whole charade of the "buying" process and then sticking the knife in after 2 or 3 years.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 18:54

We're obviously 'in the same boat', Cronos, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.



What is the possibility of all us cheated pre '74 TT/PTP refusal people getting a petition together to present to the Turkish Government in Ankara?



I have already prepared a letter, ready to be sent to the Turkish Military - outling our personal circumstances, together with photographs taken from every aspect of our property to prove we cannot see anything to do with the military, or their activities. But who to send such a letter to? Nobody can or will tell me.



If the military are so concerned about us, and our backgrounds have already, supposedly, been verified by Immigration - why can't they interview us, and while they're at it, explain why on Earth we should pose any threat?



How many of us have signed and filled in the (compensation) form from HBPG, which Marion Stokes was going to present to CTP - but this was unavoidably delayed due to the recent election - how many, I wonder, indeed?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 19:03

Tenakoutou....yes we are in the same boat....and it stinks !



If I thought for one moment that the Turkish Government would listen then I'd join that petition.



But do you think this is likely when they preside over the TRNC and allow this scandal to be perpetrated.



The excuse is always the Military,but the real reason is that they want to keep Pre-74 Turkish Title for TC only ownership.

TC's aren't stupid....they won't touch "Exchange" deeds.....and there isn't enough "safe" Pre-74 to go around if us foreigners own it.



As I've said before,they'll let us BUY it.and lead us through the whole charade of the "legal " process,knowing full well that they won't give us PTP.



A forward thinking,modern,"westernised " democracy?......don't make me laugh !

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 19:04

John,



What is the compensation form you have mentioned?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 21:15

Bradus: You should get on to the HBPG website and check it out.



Failing that, I'm sure Marion Stokes, or one of the team will explain at their regular Tuesday lunchtime meeting at the Pia Bella Hotel.



They emailed me the letter, which I duly filled in and emailed back - job done.



As Cronos says; how long can successive governments allow this scandal to be perpetuated?



OK, if they want to keep TC land and properties for TC's exclusively, then compensate us....but come clean, for God's sake.



I'm sure this policy isn't in line with Muslim principles - is it, TC's, or do you believe we deserve to be hoodwinked like this - would you like to be a victim of the dishonest treatment your government has dealed to us?



Can your government seriously believe we retired expats are a threat to TRNC security? Have they been watching the BBC programme 'Dad's Army', and taken it seriously? It would be laughable were it not such a serious predicament for us.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 22:49

Tenakoutou & cronos

I couldn't agree more. Scandalous, racist & corrupt. What a fine face the TRNC presents to the world whilst claiming to be a 'victim' of the RoC.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 23:44

I found a villa to buy in Karsiyaka last year.Price agreed,went to see my cousin who is a solicitor,to do the buying for me.He asked for the relevent papers from the estate agent,went there and pick them up himself,inc.copy of the title deeds.



We met up few days later in court house gardens to discus whats what.HE showed me the title deeds and said,this is just a peace of land,there is no houses on this land as far as title deeds show.

I said,isint that what everyone does these days?(buying the property and worrieng about the deeds after)

he said,unfortunatly "yes",is it the wright thing to do,"NO"



We were sitting under a tree,he said I'll sell you this tree if you want but it isnt mine.

I asked,how can you?

He said,I cant couse its not mine,so until they show me the title to this house,we are not buying.He also said,alot of foreign people do this even dough,law clearly states,you can only buy once you have your PTP.



I guess,I was just lucky to have gone to wright person!

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
29/08/2009 23:52

Many TC's may abstain from buying Exchange, but know quite a few Tc's who have 'exchange' property. Also recently lost out to TC on such property at auction.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 01:43

yorgozlu,



The reason why most foreigners have bought before getting their PTP is that the advocates have informed them it is just a formality. When you ask a developer/estate agent to wait, they generally reply that PTP's can take up to 2 years to come through so there is absolutely no chance of waiting or you would lose the sale.



It is an impossible situation and one that needs addressing straight away. It may work well for the TC's but it certainly is unworkable for the foreign buyers.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 02:04

Bradus;

I am not in dissagreement to your comments,other then pointing out that "us TCs can also get sucked into this vichius(?) circle."



And I cannot express in words,how much I wish that I could help.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 10:25

Yorguzlu.....your example in message 60 is misleading in that you describe a situation where someone tries to sell you a property that doesn't belong to them.



In the case of Pre-74 Turkish Title deeds,the problem is that you are buying something that DOES belong to the vendor , but then 2 or 3 years later the Government decides that they don't want a foreigner to own it !



Shameful ,corrupt ,deceitful , racist , and discriminatory.....this underhand policy should be condemned for the scandal that it is !

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 10:48

first bullet in the mag is for cronos

claytons got the right idea

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 10:53

Sorry cyprusairsoft I don't understand.



I have been the victim of a property selling scandal.....is that bullet aimed at me or shot on my behalf?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 11:29

Cronos: This is the letter to be presented by HBPG.............



Name(s)

Address(es)

Date.



The Council Of Ministers

TRNC Parliament

Lefkoşa



Claim for compensation - Government refusal of Permission to Purchase

Application No: 11/77/200n-number



Dear Sirs



I/We assert that the Government of the TRNC through its Council of Ministers, has failed to lawfully regulate and administer the Sale of Immovable Property to foreigners in a just, equitable, lawful, non racial and reasonable manner, causing financial loss, hardship, emotional pain and suffering to those affected.



I/WE therefore apply for compensation incurred as a result of your Government misadministration.



The Regulations governing the Sale of immoveable Property to foreigners require a foreign purchaser to obtain Permission to Purchase (PTP) before buying an Immoveable Property. The administration of the process to obtain PTP can take several years.



No Vendor of Immoveable Property will wait those

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 11:32

(nor is it reasonable to expect them to), while a potential foreign Purchaser applies for, and hopefully obtains, their Permission to Purchase that property. Therefore a foreigner purchasing an Immoveable Property has to commit to the purchase by signing a contract before PTP has been granted.



If all foreign purchasers insisted on obtaining PTP first then the Construction Industry would have collapsed.



Although the Government of the TRNC is aware of this and actively encouraged the sale and purchase of Immoveable Property, especially to foreigners, it has failed to take action to correct the situation, and is therefore responsible for the consequences of allowing the situation to continue.



The consequence of the situation is that I /We, and many other foreigners, have signed contracts, and paid vendors for Immoveable Property, but have later been refused Permission to Purchase.



This means that we will never legally own the Immoveable Property for which we have paid,

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 11:35

, because the Vendor retains control over the Immoveable Property.



We therefore ask for Compensation of £……………., calculated as follows:- Example only….



Amount paid for Immoveable Property £165000-00

Stamp Duty £800-00

Legal Fees £2000-00

Other costs £20-000

Sub Total £

Interest lost – @ 15% £

Total £



If I/we do not receive a reply from you within thirty days from date of this letter I/we will have no option but to instigate legal action for recovery of above compensation.



Yours Faithfully





(signature/s) ………………………………………………….. …………………………………………………..

(Print name/s) ………………………………………………. …………………………………………………....





c.c. President Mehmet Ali Talat

TRNC Turkish Ambassador

Commander Ltg Hilmi Akin Zorlu

British High Commissioner Peter Millett

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 11:51

Tenakoutou....thanks for the info.



Are copies of this available on the HBPG website or at the Pia Bella meetings....or do you submit your details to Marion to complete on your behalf ?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 12:22

Cronos et al: Simply copy the above letter and paste it into 'Word' - work out compensation due - then print it out and, preferably, deliver your letter, in person, to the HBPG at one of their Tuesday lunchtime (1200-1500 Hrs) meetings at the Pia Bella Hotel.



That's my advice; because it's hardly fair to send it by email and expect an HBPG member to print it out on your behalf - there will be hundreds of these letters!



By going to an HBPG meeting, one can keep abreast of the latest developments on all property issues.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 13:19

msg 54 and 55.

There is indeed much property that is the said pre 1974 title. This may be Turkish, British or indeed any other title that is shown in the Official ROC register in Nicosia.

However, given the shamefull state of the ROC land registry. There is potential issues with any title that pertains to territory North of the Green line. A TRNC pre 74 title is of little international worth unless it is verified by the ROC land registry.

Of course the notion of exchange land and the ongoing talks upon property restitution will ultimately lead to a comprehensive solution. I think that no one can categorically provide a definitive safe statement regarding titles in the TRNC.

It is unfortunate that the TRNC administration offer no fair and objective protocol to title issuance. The stance is certainly almost prohibitive to further development of the TRNC property and development industry.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 14:57

cronos,

re msg 64;

I was refering to builders that built on someone elses land then sell it to us,when in actual fact,its not theirs to sell it to anyone.

Sorry for misleading.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 19:33

Yorgozlu/Msg 60-------------



The content of your posting is entirely irrelevant concerning foreign purchasers.



If foreigners followed the letter of this absurd 'law', and were/are forced to wait 2-10+ years for PTP, or never, as is the case with pre '74 Turkish Title, the TRNC construction industry boom would never have started.



So, perhaps your 'lawyer' cousin can tell us all why this 'law' hasn't either been ammended, or enforced?



Given that the construction industry has virtually ground to a halt, TC's should realise that, for their long term conomic survival, their government should now sit up and take notice of the recommendations put to them by the Home Buyers' Pressure Group. TC's need to be discusssing this serious issue amongst themselves, and petitioning government to make amends, because it is no longer advisable to 'bury their heads in the sand', as has happened hitherto.

IvorBankloan



Joined: 14/08/2009
Posts: 180

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:24

hey Nick you don't sell rope do you?

I feel like hanging myself now.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:31

Tenakoutou

Whilst totally agreeing with you about what TC's need to be discussing, the sad fact is, they won't. Why should they?



The majority it seems to me are featherbedded by being employed in government inflation proof jobs for life and a great inflation proof pension to follow. This includes the so called elected paid politicians ( has anyone heard of individual politicians, other than ministers, actually doing anything or representing their electorate?)



Others have and continue to make good money out of gullible foreigners (builders, advocates, estate agents, shop owners etc.). All the time this 'shangri la' continues nothing will change. Apart from that I'm really not a cynical disillusioned old Hector.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:37

Tenakoutou, re msg 74;

You will find if you inquire that "the law"does state ,YOU SHOULD GET YOUR PTP, before buying.



But, in my opinion it should be the other way round,(Purcheser must have his/hers PTP before you can sell)If you know what I mean!



What I'm trying to point out is;because of this lupe-hole in law is why builders/estate agents are getting away with murder.



Putting it in actual black and white;(and I dont mean anything horrible with my comments);Above all the wrongs with TRNC,it didnt help with all ex-pats rushing to buy cheap properties in the sun+high interest rates where you dont have to move a finger for the rest of your life.



I know you guys are gonna feel offended to my comments,but this is how I see it.We have all got to take some sort of blame,even if its %1.



If and when any of you guys feel the need for a little bit of help(I speak turkish)dont hesitate to ring my bell.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:39

Yorgozlu...msg 77....a genuine offer of help if needed is much appreciated.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:41

Hector....msg 76



I take it then that it's not so much "Hector's House" as "The bloke that sold it to Hector's house" ?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
30/08/2009 20:54

yorgozlu is perfectly right, no one should enter into a contract before getting their PTP. This message is also reiterated by the HBPG too.



It is to late for most of us poor sods but anyone looking to purchase in the TRNC should stick to this rule. If all new buyers did then it would soon be amended. It only continues because we have allowed it to.

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 01:45

Whilst Estate Agents "registered" by the Government are allowed to continue to include statements on their websites, like getting a PTP is a formality & the buying process is simple then this will continue.

Out of interest I checked out the website for a newly opened Estate Agents today. Hidden away under FAQ was this link to the buyers guide. The third sentence is particularly misleading for new buyers.

Buyer's guide

When purchasing a freehold property in Northern Cyprus, there are certain procedures that must be carried out with the Ministry of Interior – this is known as a purchase permit application. This can sometimes take up to 24 months to complete, but due to Government initiative this time frame is reducing rapidly and by the end of 2009 the predicted completion time for new applications is expected to be around 6-9 months. This does not mean however that you have to wait for this amount of time before you can take possession of your property.

contd

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 01:48

contd.

The process for buying any freehold property:

1. Decide on the property

2. Agree price and payment schedule

3. Pay an agreed holding deposit, along with the 0.5% contract stamp duty, to secure the property.

4. Contract to be drawn up by the solicitor clearly setting down the terms of sale including price, timescale and any other special conditions.

5. Contract signed by both parties.

6. Contract is stamped at the Tax office and the 0.5% contract stamp duty is paid by the purchaser’s lawyer, within 21 days of the contract date.

7. The contract is registered at the land registry office by the purchaser’s lawyer.

8. Purchaser provides the agreed deposit (normally 20%) within the time frame specified within the contract (usually within 14 days).

9. Purchaser’s solicitor applies for the Purchase Permit from the Council of Ministers.

contd.

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 01:53

contd.

10. The purchaser pays the final balance on the date agreed by both parties within the contract, along with the 5% KDV (VAT) and takes possession of the property.

11. For off-plan properties, or ones that are under construction, stage payments are agreed until completion of the property under the terms of the contract. Purchaser then takes possession of the property as above.

12. Upon transfer of title the purchaser must pay the balance, the transfer of title stamp duty (which is currently 6%, reduced to 3% on any one purchase) and 1% of that stamp duty to the local municipality.

13. Sale completed.



Now what could be simpler.

No wonder New purchasers still make mistakes.

No mention whatsoever about different types of Title deeds either.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 12:14

Scruff....simple indeed !



And Permission To Purchase STILL sounds like a formality and nothing to worry about !

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 15:10

How about PTS = Permission To Sell?



If the govt introduced PTS, it would do away with many, many of the current problems buyers face - eg: mortgaged land, no building permission, builders KDV, infrastructure in place, etc.



If a Vendor cannot comply with the aforementioned - PTS Refused!



And the bonus for TC's would be; as so many have, or will, or are going out of private business, that the government would have to recruit a whole new army of civil servants and bureaucrats!



If PTS was implemented, imagine how quickly potential buyers faith in the TRNC property market would be restored - a sure-fire way of kick-starting the construction industry.



This would, however, have a slight, but only slight, downside - most of the advocates/'lawyers' would go out of business, due to a lack of cheated homebuyers !

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 19:38

No comments?



And here I am - trying to be constructive!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 20:02

Tenakoutou....sounds like a great idea to me.



If a system of Permission To Sell was introduced then presumably Pre-74 Turkish Title Deeds would only be offered to sale to TC's if this is now the policy ?



Also this would speed up the conveyancing/purchase system no end as all the paperwork would be in place before the property could even be marketed.

Then perhaps all we would need as buyers is a clean Police check and proof of no criminal record ?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
31/08/2009 20:28

You got it in one, Cronos!



Unfortuneately, one word, alone, puts the 'kybosh' on what I consider to be this practical suggesstion; that little word is 'NEPOTISM'!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 09:19

'Then perhaps all we would need as buyers is a clean Police check and proof of no criminal record ?'



Prior to 2006, this requirement wasn't mandatory.



Even when it became so, the 'crims' were (allegedly) allowed to stay.



Did anyone see the 'Horizon' TV documentary about UK villains being interviewed in TRNC?

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 15:53

msg 89;

"Did anyone see the 'Horizon'TV documetary about UK villians being interviewed in TRNC"



I hadnt seen it,but besides that:



Why do you think most ex-pats just keep moaning about problems they are having in Cyprus and not catching the next plane back to UK!

iF I had half the problems you are having,I'd have been long gone by now,unless......................???????????????

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 15:56

cont.

Please dont think that I'm painting everyone with same brush regarding my comments,re msg 90.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 16:46

Yorgozlu....I'm glad you qualified your statement , because "most ex-pats" sounds like you mean the majority of Brits !

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:13

cronos,

re msg 92;

Thank you for correcting me.But,yes,thats exactly what I meant.(I, for one being one of Brits)

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 17:15

Yorgozlu...I'm confused now....but let's call it a draw.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 18:14

Yorgozglu/Msg 90:



When one has been unavoidably cheated, left right and centre, due to lax laws, and no fault of one's own, one has to stay to face the lengthy litigation proceedures involved - so, no chance to leave, even if one wanted to - which I, for one, for the time being, don't!



Publicising one's genuinely bad experiences on a forum is not necessarily 'moaning' - but if it helps to warn others to beware of the pitfalls, surely this is no bad thing. However,to think, or criticise to the contrary is utterly naive.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 18:26

this post is becoming like War and Peace......

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 18:27

Wasn't that your intention Nick ?

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 20:23

nope, just wanted a witty and humerous reply from the Crutch Crusader and then that would have been enough for me....

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/09/2009 20:33

Well, NN, when you 'cast your bread on the waters', what can you expect, dear chap?