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Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 09:04

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Message 1 of 21 in Discussion

After a century of hostiity and with intervention from Hilary Clinton they have now put hostility behind them. Will Turkey now have to admit genocide. What gates will this now open for the rest of the world



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 09:53

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Turkey insists that historical facts should be examined by historians and not by parlimentarians. Turkey has opened her Ottoman archives for all historians to examine them and wants others specially Armenia to open up her archives. I think Armenia has agreed to that now. Let us wait and see how much aggro there was from one side and under what circumstances the Turks retaliated. Everything should be discussed fully in the open and pass judgement accordingly rather than through one sided votes in various national parliaments.

Nationalists on both sides are not happy with the developments and will try to derail the process as much as they can. Both sides need real statesmen to see the process through. Good luck to them.

ismet

http://www.elkocyprus.com



ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 11:46

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The problem with opening the archives is that they are in a script very few people can read, so as far as the ordinary person is concerned they might as well remain closed.



Most people don't realise that the "Armenian Problem" dates to well before the First World War. Lord Kinross touches on this towards the end of his book "The Ottoman Centuries, The Rise and fall of the Turkish Empire". Or for more detail, have a look at "A Shameful Act, The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility" by the Turkish historian, Taner Akcam



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 12:48

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I am not a good reader and I hardly ever read history books. My understanding is that Turkey wants to set up a joint team of world nenowned historians to examine the archives and lay out the true facts as they occurred. Then the facts can be discussed fully. It is the job of the experts to read the old records in whatever language and script and not for ordinary people.

If we draw a parallel with Cyprus, it is important to note that there are not many GCs in the north but it is also equally important to know how this came about i.e. the events that led to it.

ismet



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 13:14

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Re msg 4



>>I am not a good reader and I hardly ever read history books.<<



))))))



I think you might 'regret' that admission my old friend ....



Take care



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 13:25

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http://www.rferl.org/content/Azerbaijan_Rejects_ArmeniaTurkey_Deal/1848733.html





Looks like there could be a spanner in the works,

Paul.



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 13:25

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There is more actual written evidence for GCs attempted genocide against the TCs than has ever been found against Turkey. In fact, I do not think there has been any genuine evidence against Turkey.



Troodo.



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 17:52

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While I do accept that what happened to the Armenians was genocide,I dont think Turkey should be lectured to by America or Europe ,and that includes the UK given their past histories over the last 200 years.



Britain still refuses to apoligise to South African elements for the deaths in concentration camps of about a quarter of the entire Boer population of children.



America ,only recently gave a half hearted apology ,to American Indians for their genocide.



As for Europes part in the Jewish Genocide, 18 out of the top 20 wanted Nazi war criminals came from countries other than Nazi Germany,evenly spread throughout Europe.France the prime mover in the move to get Turkey to admit to genocide, only itself partially apologised for its part ,this year.



So all this righteous indignation is a bit hypocritical.



Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
11/10/2009 23:15

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Message 9 of 21 in Discussion

girne 29



Nobody should be lectured, but first of of all it should be their own interest to recognise their part in making wrong things call it genoside, massacre or mass killing. I believe true friends of Turkey, should encourage them to just recognise the truth, honor the victims and be done with it. This would only enhance Turkey's standing in the world.



Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 03:18

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Message 10 of 21 in Discussion

msg 9i you are right. Its time to move forward. If this is a small part then we accept it. We can all delve into history but this is the 21st century. We have to shape the future xxx



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 03:46

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Magbs.Lilli

Exactly!

I agree it is time to all move on ,why then was the Armenian Tragedy brought up at all after nearly a century .My point was that countries that demand Turkey look back and apologise, do not demand of themselves the same thing.

The French started the ball rolling,but one wonders if the timing of the demand that Turkey accepts what it did was Genocide, is more to do with Turkeys EU bid, and their oppositiont to it.



"France's President Chirac and Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy have both said Turkey will have to recognise the Armenian deaths as genocide before it joins the EU - though this is not the official EU position.



There are accusations in Turkey that the Armenian diaspora and opponents of Turkey's EU membership bid are using this issue to prevent Turkey joining the 25-member bloc."



I imagine teacosy would be actually disappointed if Turkey did do as demanded.



I actually believe it was genocide so am not excusing it.



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 10:21

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Girne 29.

Where is the evidence that makes you believe that Turkey is guilty.

The fact that Armenians massacred thousands of Turkish civilians seems conveniently forgotten, yet there is far more evidence for that.



Troodo.



DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 11:07

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RE msg 4, Ismet: (...) My understanding is that Turkey wants to set up a joint team of world nenowned historians to examine the archives and lay out the true facts as they occurred. (...)

=> We may hope that these historians start with a somewhat wider examination than "the true facts as they occurred"! The latter will not be so difficult - the world must know and understand also once and forever the circumstances that led to what happened. I'm not convinced yet it should be classified as "genocide". (*)



(*) Genocide: The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 11:36

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Message 14 of 21 in Discussion

Troodo



Looks like I cant win.



I am supporting the Turks in not having to apoligise at EU and US's behest due their inability to offer similar apologies.

I did say I believe it was genocide, but thats only based on what I have read. That doesnt make it a fact.

Genocide- "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm "

Up to everyone to make up their own minds if what happened comes into the above defination.



What you say about the killings of Turks actually backs up what I say, we cant pick one instance out of many, but

2 million Germans were murdered at end of war,does that mean the Germans can deny the millions they murdered. Does Nagasaki/Hiroshima mean Nanking wasnt so bad?



Its more to do with Turkey , France, and EU membership. And if we went back 100years in any countries history,we would be apologising



DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 11:48

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Message 15 of 21 in Discussion

RE msg 14, girne 29: (...) 2 million Germans were murdered at end of war (...)

=> If this figure is not a typo: where, when, why and by whom?!



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 12:22

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Message 16 of 21 in Discussion

msg. 15

I think he meant 2 million jews?

ismet



DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 13:01

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RE msg 16, Ismet: "Since 1945-46, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been an estimate of approximately six million. This figure, first given at the Nuremberg Tribunal, has been confirmed again and again by later research. Of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived."

(Source: http://is.gd/4fex2 )



My question in msg 15 remains unanswered.



MartinM


Joined: 03/10/2009
Posts: 166

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 13:04

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Message 18 of 21 in Discussion

Actually Elko2 I believe the number of Jews involved was something closer to 6 million, BUT another 5 million or so Homosexuals, Gypsies, Physically Deformed, Mentally Retarded, Catholics, Communists and for various other Ayrian reasons, were exterminated.



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 14:45

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Message 19 of 21 in Discussion

Ismet



I said at the end of the war.1945-47.MartinM is correct.





As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, although we cant say it was murder as it was an act of war ,some would say Nagasaki was murder as the rationale was no longer there. I suppose the difference between that and Nanking was that one was cold blooded and the other was hot blooded.



42 million civilians were killed in WW2 ,the deliberate killing of non combatents as opposed to accidental or collateral damage ,as we call it now ,I think could be called murder.

ie unlawful killing.



I go back to my original point that in light of the above ,who are we to lecture Turkey on the murder of the Armenians a century ago. Move on and instead of going on about the past ,try harder to prevent Genocide like Yugoslavia and Rwanda happening in the present.



Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 15:52

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Message 20 of 21 in Discussion

Re msg. 15



Not sure if one can call it "murder", but as many as 2 million Germans died on their trek westwards when Stalin agreed with the allies to move the Polish border west to the Oder. Also hundreds of thousands died during the forced labor in the Soviet Union after WW2. This is the fact, but no one should forget that that was the consequence of the aggressive, expansionist and destructive Nazis policies.



As for the 1915-1917 events, well...it's so obvious, widely accepted and well-documented...Why it so difficult to recognise without waiting to get lectured and without referring to what others did or did not? Nobody is asking for compensation, borders change or population resettlement.



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/10/2009 16:23

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Message 21 of 21 in Discussion

Maqbs

"Not sure if one can call it "murder". ,I am unclear what you could call it. The reason those people were in that position was as you state, but that does not give anyone else carteblanche to take advantage of that in order to rape and murder.



That is not important.



The Armenian Genocide happened 1915, my complaint is why did nobody care until Turkey is trying to get into the EU and then all of a sudden it becomes linked to Turkeys joining.



Anyway ,as you say ,let Turkey apologise, and get it over with.



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