Orams Factsheet - case is tomorrow

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 17:39

on http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com no thanks to Extend!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 17:55

Add this to the future equation it will have no baring on the decision in the next few days which in my mind sadly is a forgone conclusion. The court will up hold the EU decision... İ truly hope İ am wrong...





http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/2009/09-11-10.tcpr.html

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 20:15

Winslow:



You may well be right! It will be a battle lost but the process of deciding the future of the TRNC will continue!



I simply cannot imagine hundreds or thousands of case like this one to be lodged - partly because of the costs involved and partly because the process will take time and as we say, events will over take the legal process!



Psychologically, it will be a hard one to swallow - but soon enough the focus will change!



We shall see!

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 20:19

Mal,i cant get the file to upload,it says its damaged!??

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 20:21

Same here Mal..:(

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
11/11/2009 20:37

Can't go too much further as no one will pay the costs of the parties, unlike the Orams.



PS. I've got 10 donums for sale, with outline planning permission. Have a great builder who is due out of prison next week and a lawyer who will sign you up with a contract that is worth the paper it is written on!



Mersin 10 is getting to be a reality.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 17:59

have now updated the damaged file, it was uploaded around the time we lost internet connection for 2 days.

keithr


Joined: 20/08/2008
Posts: 720

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 18:19

But will it not just be an accepted test case for the future as have many before them ???



In other words,granted "on the nod" ???

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 18:25

that's what's expected but the implications are enormous. Everyone in the UK with assets could be pursued by GCs unless the judge awards in the GC's favour but only to the sum of 2p damages, for example. Bit unlikely but by doing that both parties win and the judge has followed EU recommendations.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 18:31

Just managed to download it, I do hope it goes well, but alas I dont think it will

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:35

It is not just people in U.K that could be in trouble - anyone in the EU who also has property here - there are Germans, French, etc, etc - so the ramifications are..................................but don't let's worrytoo mmuch, because the Orams expect that even if this goes against them , there will be ongoing court wrangles. Don't ask me what.

And for the record, if anyone wants a copy of the Orams Fact Sheet, you can get one from marions@superonline.com.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:40

So if the Orams lose,and its pretty obvious that they will,is that the end of it or will there be another level of appeal,

Paul.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:41

When the Orams lose, what bearing, if any, will it have on the current talks?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:48

Bill,

I would imagine when they (the orams) lose it will be the last nail in the coffin for any settlement to be reached.How can Talat evenn look Christofias in the eye ehen thousands of people are going to be ripped off by the gcs.Worrying times i think Bill,

Paul.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:51

Isn't there a parallel case in the ECHR issued by the Orams, which deals with breaches of Human Rights and in particular Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights?



Article 8 is - Right to private life, family life, home and correspondence?



Has this yet to be started/decided?

Unsure about the position on this particular case. Does anyone know?



Tx

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:53

Could you update us MarieB, or is it they are awaiting the decision of tomorrow's hearing before proceeding further?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 22:55

Paul. I was thinking along the lines of possible reunification. Then the island would be part of the EU leaving the door open for property claims here.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:03

It is very much one step at a time with the Orams case. Both Linda and David constantly say that they are guided by their lawyers (and we all know that one was pretty rotten - the Vahibs!). They (Orams and lawyers) were hoping that they might have had a re-hearing in Europe (see article in Cyp. Observer tomorrow! - an article gives as much up to date info as available as to who is doing what to whom), but that was denied.

They are now having a go at Public Interest and Protocol 10 comes into it, but it would appear that each hearing goes for just one aspect of the case. Hence, it is the opinion that if this case fails, then other angles will be tried. So, unless the Orams WIN this week, it can go on for ages more. At least that is the feeling of Linda and David - althoughthey often admit that it is all confusing. So, if they are confused, then so are we.



As to what effect this will have on the current talks - I think it could put the issue of property back to square minus one!

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:05

Oops, sorry I talk too much and ran out of space.

I wanted to finish by saying that as property is one of the main issues as well as a 'sticking point', if the Orams lose now, then the flood gates will be open for loads more Apostolides-type caswes, although one has to ask as to whether the legal system could cope. There are lawyers connected with Embargoed! who think not!



One thing is sure - we are all learning patience.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:07

MarieB. Thanks for letting us know.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:09

The Case, which has been part heared is due for final hearing not before 10.30 AM , court 63, Court of Appeal civil Division.

Judges are: Justice Lloyd, Pill and Kennedy.

It is noted that justices will hear an application to amend and to cross appeal.

What does this mean?

I suspect the Orams team, given the decision of the ECJ earlier this year would like to amend some detail of the appeal and also make cross appeal against decisions that have gone against them previous.



It is more than coincidence, i feel that Mr Christofias had meeting with Gordon Brown Yesterday.

Full support to EMBARGO for their efforts and highlighting the Human injustices that dominate the TRNC. Full support to the British Residents Association who secured permission to make written submissions to the Appeal Court.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:12

I think representation should be made to GB as to why he had a meeting with this man at a very sensitive time given the Orams case.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:14

Full support to the British Residents Association who secured permission to make written submissions to the Appeal Court.



Can we see those submissions, or will we have to wait until the judgement?

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
12/11/2009 23:23

From what I read (and I am no Gordie fan) when the subject was raised Gordie said he couldn't comment, as well he knows.....

The judiciary are free to make decisions without interference from the government.

Look at the fabulous Lord Denning. A star of his time.



Let's just all keep those fingers and toes crossed for a decision that actually flies in the face of the the malicious application now before the Court.



This is a highly charged political case, and the judiciary would know that.

There has to be a certain degree of fairness shown to both parties, having considered the political implications from both sides.



Wouldn't really want to be in "their" shoes in making such a decision.

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 00:29

The Turkish generals are not going no where, they are staying put. They have overthrown so many governments. No way do I think the Turkish army would ever leave Northern Cyprus. No chance



They demand:- , Greek Cypriot adminstration



The end of Turkish Gurantorship

The removal of all new Turkish nationals



There is little similarties but huge differences



There is no chance the Turkish army will leave. NEVER

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 01:01

Well i'd like to say i'm fairly positive that this will go the orams way,i think they were never given a fair trial in the first instance,i mean they couldnt even read the papers issued because it was in greek,if your suing a brit at least have it written in english as well as greek,12 days to prepare a defence!!And then when it goes back to the ECJ,the main guy was greek origin,with a bloody medal for services to cypriots,i mean,whats that all about?If it wasnt so serious it would be a f..king joke!!I for one hope that both sides do eventually sort out their problems,property etc,but this is simply not the way to do it!It could even derail the whole process imho.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 01:16

Sporty it is in the forum of the Court. Let them deal with it.

Whatever your view. it will be decided tomorrow, and i think we could all be waiting with judgment reserved.

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 01:24

Hi Taraspring,i agree its in the forum of the court,and that theres nothing i like many others can do about it,i was just expressing my opinion of it which i believe i'm entitled to do,i think the decision will not be upheld by the court due to some of the reasons i've expressed in mesg.26.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 01:36

Sporty you are absolutely entitled to express your opinion, and I sincerely hope you are right. x



I am not positve that this will go the Orams way. (if this happens I will jump for joy)

I think the only way that this will go is this..................



(1) Decision against the Orams.

(2) Derisory compensation to Mr GC.



That is what I would hope to happen.

We will see.



I just hope I am sooooo wrong.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 09:34

I fear that collusion within the judiciary has already decided the result of this appeal. However, the game will continue until such a time as the the UN and larger"game- players" take a place at the table. Turkey and the USA will become very important partners in the not too distant future. Apostolides and Greedy GC's will become small fry in comparisson.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 09:46

I agree with taraspring, msg 29, "(1) Decision against the Orams, (2) Derisory compensation to Mr GC." who agrees with me, msg 9.

If the Orams lose in the Appeal Court, as far as I understand it, that is it for the UK. This would open the gates for others to be sued there. However if the compensation is derisory and/or costs were not allowed then no GC would bother pursuing a case. Each EU country would have to have its own cases to establish a similar precedent but again might not bother if the UK appeal failed.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:01

I have seen in past press articles on this an Appeal to the House of Lords could be made. Not being that familiar with the UK legal system I don't know what the likelihood of successes of such an appeal would be.



Aussie

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:49

not unless the judges give leave to appeal

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:57

Before LORD JUSTICE PILL

LORD JUSTICE LLOYD and

SIR PAUL KENNEDY

Not Before half-past 10

APPLICATION

A2/2006/2114(B) Orams & Anr -v- Apostolides. Application of Appellant for permission to amend which includes an application for permission to cross appeal. Part Heard.

APPEAL

From The Queen's Bench Division

FINAL DECISIONS

A2/2006/2114 Orams & Anr -v- Apostolides. Appeal of Respondent from the order of Mr Justice Jack, dated 6th September 2006, filed 3rd October 2006. Part Heard.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/list_coacivil.htm

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:01

so the final decision should be some time after 12:30 Cyprus time

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:10

Lord Justice Pill may be biased



Look at this article that gives details of all the people attending a drinks party.



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/global_law/news/docs/GERMAN.pdf



Notice in the second column the third line down who attended the drinks party with Lord Justice Pill - Mr Bitsios, Greek Minister! Lord Justice Pill's name is on line 16. I don't see any Turkich Ministers name's there.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:20

hopefully the other two judges might balance out his potential bias - did I hear an oink in the sky just then?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:36

Mal, I saw something pink fly over just now )

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 13:04

Nothing as of yet on Radio 4 11 am news .

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 13:05

I havnt seen it mentioned on any tv?is it in any of the uk papers today?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 13:54

They're just going back into the court after lunch. "Orams Case: Thursday morning 12th November" now on http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 13:55

What is clear, however, is that there is still a long way to go before the matter is finally

resolved. It is likely to be some time before the Court of Appeal deliver their ruling and

then it may still be open to the parties to appeal further to the House of Lords. The

decision of the European Court of Human Rights is also a long way off.

At this stage, the position regarding title deeds and ownership of property in the TRNC

remains the same. The High Court judgment in the UK remains binding, unless and until

it is overturned by a decision of the Court of Appeal.



http://www.nmplegal.com/pdf/The%20Oram%20Case%203.pdf

pjnxi



Joined: 12/02/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 14:22

Hi Orams v Apostolides. court 63 @ 10.30 am A2/2006/2114 jn.