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Rule of Law in TRNC is letting us down

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WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2009 22:01

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Message 1 of 69 in Discussion

Having looked at responses for the "grade TRNC" active post. It is no suprise to me that without exception members are dissmayed by the Rule of Law in the TRNC.



What does the TRNC administration, Council of Ministers, Judges and advocates propose to do? drastic reform and accountability is needed.

I wholly agree that the system comprehensively fails to serve citizens of the TRNC. Advocates harp on about how the system is based on that of UK and that many advocates are UK educated and trained.

Perhaps advocates should pay heed to: duty of care, conflict of interest, confidentiality, and should become aspirations for those advoctes.



The poor and failing legal system is already having a profound negative impact upon investment into the region. Certainly many ex-pats are leaving, in part because of the inherrant failings within the system. Many people have been ill served by the Law and, too ,have left the TRNC.



How much of a wake up call does the administration need.



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2009 22:04

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cont.

Investors will just not poor money into a region that has a poor legal and justice system.

The proof is evident. How has investment declined in recent years.

It is so important that the powers that can change the system get a grip and pull the system up by the scruff, shake it and get it sorted.



No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
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Message Posted:
23/12/2009 22:18

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Waz. How right you are in your last sentence. Will it happen though?



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
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Message Posted:
23/12/2009 22:44

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msg1;

Any idea who might be able to "do those things" in order to sort out the poor legal and justice system in TRNC on this FORUM?



WRONG PLACE!!



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
23/12/2009 23:23

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Waz:



Your point is well made.



The 'Rule of Law' is the essence of any workable system. At its core is the notion that the law applies equally to the governed and the governing. However, it should be clear that the 'Rule of Law' need not necessarily mean a 'just legal system'. We can therefore have the 'rule of law' but not justice as would be the case in a dictatorship.



What we 'seem' to have in the TRNC is a set of rules which purport to be democratic and is underpinned by a constitution of sorts (1975).



The fact is that any constitution is only as good as the ability to enforce it and here in lies the problem.



Too many vested interests in a small population which is closely connected at the top. I need not spell out what that means



The real problem is that there are (were?) enough investors willing to take a 'chance' on the system and so the economy and the bad practices flourished!



There will be no incentive to do anything about this unless and until..Cont'd



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
23/12/2009 23:34

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Cont'd:



...there is an ECONOMIC reason to do so.



As long as those in positions of power and influence have a system working in their favour there is no incentive to change it.



TRNC has a 'Casino Culture' and regrettably this applies across the whole economy and in particular to land and property.



Even those foreigners who have invested here often understand that there is a reason why the property prices are relatively low here compared to elsewhere in the Med. In short they intuitively know there is a risk and few are prepared to research and assess the risk before taking the 'bet' on the TRNC delivering. For some early investors the rewards have been 'worth' the risk but like a Ponzi scheme late comers to the party take the biggest risks and have the greatest exposure.



The risks in the TRNC are both systemic and structural. As long as those in power arn't directly affected by the injustice - there is no incentive to change!



Welcome to the surreal world of the TRNC



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
23/12/2009 23:51

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Message 7 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd...



Though most of the blame lies with the system, structures and the powers that be in the TRNC - the 'victims' too should take a portion of the blame.



The system is fuelled by the foreign investmnet coming here over the last 10 years in particular.



If we are aware - as most who read or post on this forum should be - the system is deeply flawed and works generally in the favour of those who have the power and position in the system. Then we take the risks with open eyes so to speak.



"Volenti non fit injuria" (To a willing person, no injury is done). In clear language, 'if you take the risk, you must accept the consequences'!



That does not mean that the 'injustice' is any less real. It affects real people - and causes real suffering.



It simply means that there is a choice to invest or not!



If fewer people invested the incentive for a just system would become imperative.



Money speaks many languages - when used correctly, even that of JUSTICE



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:05

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msg 5-6

Moover321;

Well said and %100 agreed,but that changes nothing!!

Forum is not the place to make those comments is what I'm saying.



We do not get nowhere by telling someone that "they are stupid",but "might"by trying to help them!!





Is any of you actualy aware that,because of your comments on this forum,you are putting off other potential buyers???

It is bad enough that because builders are not selling,they are now demanding their own duties(taxes)from people whom are selling before they get their title deeds.It is all part of the plan to put you off from selling,so that they can sell their own properties.



It is one big chain reaction.And the quicker everyone realises this the better everyone would be.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:06

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Message 9 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd:



There is already a kind of 'exodus' from anecdotal eveidence - and we have the downturn in the world economy over the last 18 months or so. With tighter credit and a wider choice (prices in Spain and elsewhere have fallen) - the impact on the TRNC will be relatively harder than one would expect in other parts of the Med.



Add to that the Orams case, the on / off situation with the ROC talks, the desire for Turkey to find a 'solution' for the 'Cyprus Problem' - the increased uncertainty is unlikely to make the TRNC the first port of call for potential investors.



Having said that, there is, and will always be, a pool of investors for whatever reason who will invest in the TRNC. That pool maybe getting smaller by the day though those with a 'Casino Mentality' will always find a justification for investing - even when the odds seem stacked against them!



If the TRNC truly wants to be the Jewel of the Med, it needs to prove its has a 24 carat system of JUSTICE



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:15

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Message 10 of 69 in Discussion

Yorgozlu:



I don't pretend that by voicing my views here or entering in to debate with others on the forum that we will even make one iota of difference to the way things happen in the TRNC.



What it may do is to give someone who may be looking at the TRNC a perspective on what it might mean to them in the long run!



The intent, well at least from my perspective, is not to encourage or discourage anyone - as people who are actively using this forum are adult enough to make up their own minds.



Debate, however, does widen the horizon of our thinking and if for no other purpose that that - having such a thread is worthwhile



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:23

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Message 11 of 69 in Discussion

Moover,

People will always be prepared to have a "punt" .In my humble opinion,and this opinion has been derived from good sources 2010 will be a good time to invest in the North, or Turkey as it will surely be known by.The futures bright,the futures middle east,

Paul.



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:27

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Message 12 of 69 in Discussion

Moover321;

re msg10;

Again well said and %100 agreed,BUT,



In UK,I put myself in prisons and appeared(?) in courts when I knew I had "no chance" of winning,just so that I can have MY SAYING and MAKE MY POINT.



Did it change anything?NO(I let you work out why I'm no longer there)



Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 00:48

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Message 13 of 69 in Discussion

You know moover who made your survey and answered maNY OF THE ANSWERS sorry caps locked on. Gambling and prostution its all about that. Yes I agree many made good investments but so so many i know are leaving these. I am sad we have tried and almost readt to throw the towel in. Im not a quiotter otherwise I would have been out of here 4 years ago. We we lost the Brasserie because of thier excesive rent demands, we left with 3 lira after 4 years work. However we knew with 2000 pounds a month rent we could never make it back. We were in a bad place in our minds mainly because of my dogs. We tried to survive as best we cou;d. They wouldnt even give us our deposit back as they claimed the deposit was a donation. Our landlords was a football club a 5 solicitors on the commitee. Our solicitor the well respected and I love him said do not waste your money. Thats the system here. We will not win xxxxxxxxx



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 01:02

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Message 14 of 69 in Discussion

RE MSG 13;

Lilli;

With all due respect,the system in UK is no different fot that matter.And YES I did throw the towel in in the end because I had no choice.If only I could cut my ties compeletly!!



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 09:39

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Message 15 of 69 in Discussion

Yorgozlu:



I understand that how you have been treated has coloure your view of the UK and thus equally I am sure you can agree how people have been treated here has coloured their perspective of how the TRNC system works or doesn't as the case may be.



As I have said on many posts here, people who read these threads may get some idea of what is in store for them should the proverbial brown stuff hit the fan!



It is just a discussion. It is unlikely to shake the TRNC government in to action. However, if it gives one person more information in making an informed decision all the better.



If what you say is true - mssge 8, it would seem the builders and the system is doing all they / it can to put people off from buying here.



Shouldn't the point be that if you want more people to buy / invest here that you should have at least a level playing field and a system that works for honest people? I truly want the TRNC to succeed but I cannot see it doing so unless changes are made



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 09:47

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Message 16 of 69 in Discussion

Newlad:



Yes, I agree that people will always be prepared to take a "punt". As long as they realise that is exactly what they are doing - well and good. However, there are many who have come to the TRNC to retire or have a holiday home in the belief that they will get what they have paid for only to find that not only is that an unreal expectation but that the very legal system which is meant to protect them can actually be used to abuse them.



As for 2010 being a 'bumper' year for the TRNC - I have also heard from various sources that this is what they 'expect'.



However, just ask some basic questions and then the outlook does not look as bright.



If there is a settlement (be it 'unification' or a permanent annexation) - the argument goes there will be a settlement premium i.e. TRNC will be 'open for business and the embargo will be lifted and investment will pour in.



If you ask if the current legal system cannot cope with the current level of investment...cont'd



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 09:58

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Message 17 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd:



...how will it cope with a larger influx of potential investment? The answer is that it will be more of the same i.e. what took place in 2003-2006.



If you if the current infrastructure - roads, sewage, water, electricity cannot cope with the present level of investment - how will it cope with more property development the answer is a deafening silence!



If you ask, if the planning system is at best inefficient and at worse corrupt - what would happen with more investment? The word 'chaos' come to mind.



If at present it takes 1-2 years to get PTP and several years to get title deeds - what do you believe will happen if there were more applications? The answer is self evident.



As I have argued before - the TRNC needs to prepare strategically for the change that will most likely come but whether it has the 'will' or the 'desire' to do so is at best questionable and at worst why change a system that benefits a "few" and we all know who they are? Cont'd...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 10:05

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Message 18 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd:



Of course where there is chaos and confusion there are profits to be made - but usually by those who know how to 'work' the system and are unscrupulous in terms of who they exploit - and when a legal system cannot protect the innocent or cannot cope with the demands made on it - then you can draw your own conclusions!



If the TRNC wants to succeed - it has to change and change fast.



The question that remains is whether the TRNC is prepared to embrace the change by being proactive or will it have change thrust upon it with all that that would entail!



Let's wait and see what 2010 really brings!



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 10:40

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Message 19 of 69 in Discussion

Moover:



While crass nepotism 'rules' - we may as well resign ourselves to the fact that nothing will change, unless Turkey actually takes over government.



The immediate worry for foreigners who have bought 'Ech' property is the mortgage lending scam that has been perpetrated on them, effectively making them unwitting guarantors for all these shady loans. Only when a sufficient these people receive notification that their property is 'up for auction', which is bound to happen, will expats realise the enormity of the confidence trick which they have unknowingly succumbed to. Unfortunately, this seems to be the potential reality of the situation pertaining to property which the TRNC government was repeatedly warned not to sell.



Those people who have fairly recently (circa 2005 onwards) bought pre '74 Turkish Title, and refused PTP, have also been the innocent victims of a reprehensible government orchestrated confidence trick.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 12:35

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The lack of legal protection for any prospective purchasers. A question that is constantly brought up on this forum. İ refer to what İ have always said. There are instances due to corruption, lack of clear legislation, inexpericenced officials, whole hosts of reasons where the system has failed rendering expliotation. Our Judicary is always slated but İ have always maintained that if the evidence is there and you fight meaning well prepared and dertermined no amount of corruption can stop you. You will win and eventually they will have to act you must never role over and die stick to the strenght of your convictions even until your last breath this is a rule of life. İt could take up to 5/ 6 /7 years but better than nothing. The judges here know extactly when clear concise objective argument is presented. You will eventually succeed if you do your home work and present a strong case with the evidence to back it up.

Con.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 12:36

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The biggest problem is the property issue and İ will say again what İ have said sometimes İ believe many left the brains at stanstead departure lounge and have no one but themselves to blame and are in denial about their own mistakes.

1.Make sure you have your permission to purchase before you purchase no matter how long it takes no matter what ever any lawyer or developer tell you about time frames no PtP no purchase. Do do not try to circumvent this rule while it is in place you are asking for trouble. İt is there for a reason what ever it may be. İt is the law of this land and that is that like it or not you cannot trust laws that donít exsist in other countries as an example to justify purchasing without a PtP here. The answer you will get is this is our country you go by our rules just like you are told in every other country.

con..



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 12:37

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2.Do not purchase any porperty without recieving your title deeds donít buy a dream or a promise (a promise is a comfort to a fool) buyer beware no deeds no money this has always served me well. Let the developer complete the development call you and then buy donít listen to all that sales garbage about we have sold all and if you donít secure a unit now it wonít be avaible. Walk away keep your money in the bank or under the bed but donít hand it over or you wonít see it again. The system cannot watch over you only you can watch over you and protect yourself. As expats people know you have money and you want to live out your final days in the sunshine but for people to say this is only indicative of the TRNc is wrong. See spain and Roc.



Con...



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 12:40

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3. http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article5247723.ece

4. http://www.illegalvillasspain.com/villasellingscamsspain.html

5. http://www.illegalvillasspain.com/villasellingscamsspain.html

6. http://www.illegalvillasspain.com/villasellingscamsspain.html

7.Everyones at it donít behave like a never ending ATM or they will just keep pressing the buttons and drawing the money. So please please remember no deeds no money it is your safest protection.



Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 13:14

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Winslow:



I respect your passion for believing in the TRNC.



1. What I find difficult is that you try and justify what is happening here by the fact that it may or may not happen elsewhere. That is a false premise. The people who have bought here have problems here - not in Spain or anywhere else. The fact remains the TRNC system, government and those TC who abuse and exploit the foreigners must take their share of the blame. Clearly in recent years as it has become evident that these problems exist - people who purchase thereafter need to take responsibility too!



2. You say you should fight the system if it takes 5, 6 or 7 years and how exactly will you fund it? Where exactly will you get reputable lawyers and judges? And why should some innocent person duped by a con artist who is well connected and knows the system fight for something which if the TRNC government wanted it could correct in a very short space of time?



Cont'd...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 13:22

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Message 25 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd..



3. You say do not part with your money till you have your PTP and do not purchase without getting your title deeds. On both aspects you are 100% correct. If everyone followed this advice (and in my view they should) there would be very few problems and of course the TC companies will not be able to sell any properties as there would be no demand for the same. That would force the TRNC government to institute a system that was open, fair and transparent as the very survival of the TRNC will depend on it! The reality is that people have taken the word of the developers, lawyers, estate agents and that has caused a huge problem which the TRNC government is either unable or unwilling to solve!



4. Something like 30% of the GDP of the TRNC depends on the property and construction sector. If people stopped buying until they had their PTP and guranteed title deed the economy which is already embargoed would collapse.



Cont'd...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 13:29

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Cont'd...



5. By the TRNC government not doing anything to resolve this merely postpones the inevitable. The old saying - "you can foll some of the people some of the time...but not all of the people all of the time..." comes to mind. As more and more people become aware of the legal nightmares (5,6,7 years fighting for your rights), not getting PTP after 1 or 2 years and no title deeds after several years...will they buy property here? I would say only if they had a 'casino' mentality - it would be a gamble and NOT an investment!



6. We can do all the comparisons in the world before we invest i.e. Spain, ROC etc., but not after one has 'invested' (Gambled)! That is why if the TRNC government is serious about its long term independence it needs to take radical action and take that action now.



Does anyone think it will take such action? I guess we will wait and see!



I want the TRNC to succeed that is why I believe that pressure should be brought on the government to act



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 14:06

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Message 27 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd...



When one finds oneself in a hole the first step to get out from the hole is that we should STOP DIGGING!



Instead the TRNC government knowing the problems has chosen, if I may mix my metaphors to 'bury its head in the sand"! It has allowed the problem to fester and now that we have a global economic downturn in the last 18 months or so they are left without a strategic plan. I would bet (if I were a gambling man, which I thankfully, am not) that their hope is for another asset bubble so they can inflate their way out of this quagmire



If they had a real solution they should be shouting it from the roof tops - or even from the half built structures which seem to litter the landscape.



There are many solutions - none are easy but it would be criminal to do nothing!





winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:09

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Mover 321

İts always nice to debate with you how are you. İ know exactly what you are saying and agree and they are not buring their heads in the sand. It is true that there has to be a stronger set of laws in the construction industry. The industry grew out of proportion to the minimal legal laws that were in place. Don't think this is a monoply for only expats and there is a conspiracy against foriegners this is not true. Many T/c are in the same postion perhaps more than expats you can confirm this if you like İm sure HBPG they will tell you the same thing. They were involved in a TV debate last month on Tempo TV and Marion Stokes was there. There is alot of discontentment amongst T/c aswell. These developers didnít care who they fleeced T/c or expats. Many T/c who have never even been abroad and worked all there lives here on the İsland are stuck with no title deeds or have had properties remorgaged by developers.

con..



winslow


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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:10

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The government have recently been in consultation and are drawing up legislation and plans to speed up the system and some how end this nightmare for all concerned. This has been widely reported in the press. There are lots of proposals they are aware this sector of the economy is in trouble. İ will also say that recently you saw how the government acted swiftly with the legislation that was implemented after the banking crisis of 2000 by taking into administration Continental Bank Yesil ada and Deniz bank was that not effective. Many expats and T/c including my family had money in these banks. We went on the morning of Monday 14th December two weks ago and were given our money Sterling and TL whom has lost money. İ challenge anyone on this forum to say they were not given their money. İ havenít yet seen one person on this forum congratulate this adminstration for prempting a problem.

Con..



winslow


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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:12

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So İ will say it now CONGRATULATİONS for protecting our savings on behalf of myself and many people on this forum keep up the good work more of the same.

Regarding comparisons in the world my point was that many on the forum try to make an argument that it is only indictive of the TRNC that you only get cheated. As İ have evidenced that is not the case. That is why you must protect yourself and not leave your brains at stanstead when leaving to where ever you decide to invest. İ sincerly believe this government will bring in new measures shortly how radical İ do not know but if we look at recent events new austerity measures in empolyment which caused riots,reductions in taxation, administration of banks they are quiet serious lets hope they carry on.

Con...



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:15

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İ always said that this lot were a more intelligent bunch than the last lot. They will probably also make mistakes in the future nobodies perfect we all make mistakes and many of there policies will not appeal to all but they have got off to a good start in my opinıon given the circumstances they have inherited.



Winslow.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:23

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Winslow:



1. Yes, the governmenet has made a statement of intent that it will get the PTP within 4 days! The HBPG though happy with the proposal said they had asked for this in 2005. It has taken the TRNC nearly 5 years to acknowledge there is a problem? And remember this is ONLY a proposal. If you read the small print they believe that the problem will be 'security clearance' for the applicant - which is another way of saying that it may take longer!



2. It is hard for me to say 'this lot' is more intelligent than the last lot! I don't know. What I do know is that unless there is both the will and swift action the problems will multiply.



3. I am sure both foreigners and TC have been 'conned', however, somehow that doesn't make me feel any better! I did not say it was purely the foreigners who were being cheated - but regrettably the vast majority of the cases are foreigners in so far as I know from looking at the HBPG site and archives.



Cont'd...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:32

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Message 33 of 69 in Discussion

4. I did read about the 'swift' action on the banking issue and yes, I am glad that they took preemtive steps. However, they were facing a catasrophic melt down of the whole system if they didn't act - so I was not surprised that they have acted.



5. What is not clear is exactly what the exposure of the banks is to the various developers and how much of the property that has been fully paid for by expats (this is an expat forum of a kind) is actually mortgaged to the banks! This step to help with the savings though laudable masks the underlying fear that unless there is another asset bubble (so as to inflate themselves out of the pending crisis) the property sector is in for a long term decline and that many of the properties 'paid for' are still owned by the banks as titles have not been issued!



I am just not convinced that this government or any other has the 'b*lls' to take the radical steps necessary in all parts of the economy and in particular in the property sector!





Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 15:46

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Message 34 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd...



I am also not convinced as the mortgage issue has not been fully open to scruitiny and where the TRNC government will get the necessary finance to sort out the mess.



It may very well be that the local banks with whom the developers worked are carrying mortgages on their books for property already paid for by the current occupiers - if this is the case the occupiers who have paid for the property are NOT the legal owners - but the banks are the legal owners.



This problem is not limited to the TRNC of that we are all agreed, ROC, Spain et al.



However, the huge difference is that the TRNC does not have the capacity (financial) by itself to deal with the issues whereas in Spain and ROC it still has the ECB as the lender of last resort. Of course the arguement is that Turkey will step up to the plate - but WILL THEY? And exactly how big is this problem? What is the actual state of the banks balance sheets and exactly on which properties are they holding mortgages?



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 16:28

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Msg Mover321

None of us are privey to a banks balance sheet only the central bank know of the exposure of certain banks to the poperty sector and thier ratio to lending there are strict guıdlines. We can only speculate regarding what proposals they are going to implement in the near term lets hope they address the problem. Regarding PtP in my view it all boils down to criminal records. At present the permission to purchase is viewed as discriminatary based on protectionism and is having negative effects on the ex-pat and others in the economy & construction industry. Coupled with the common consensus of bureaucracy in the TRNC. The system for issuing PTP should be refined i.e. a legal time limit to issue PtP. Police checks through Interpol and other authorities is the main cause of delay. A possible solution if acceptable to mitigate the situation ex-pats and others should apply for their personal police records from their country of origin.

Con



winslow


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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 16:30

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Message 36 of 69 in Discussion

İn the UK a "Subject Access" form from local police in the UK from the Data Protection Officer. There is a fee it can take 21 to 40 days but is a record from UK police authorities at Scotland Yard. With this and all the other neccessary documents being arranged by the applicant as is the practice now. An interview should surfice with the police confirming authenticity and documentation stamped by the TRNC police authorities. After all information being correct PtP issued within a reasonable time by a dedicated official. This should also help with residency. İf any declaration is found to be false then the authorities will have the right to prosecute as a criminal offence. Something along this line would help. İ believe PtP is about keeping criminal elements out. İ know you especially will laugh but it is the same in many countries when you apply for residences or work permits it is PtP here.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 16:43

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Message 37 of 69 in Discussion

See my Msg 19 and any thinking person must surely recognise the enormity of this mortgage lending confidence trick.



To date, we have only seen the 'tip of the iceberg'.



Remember: the bridge crew of the 'Titanic' ignored the tip of the iceberg - draw your own conclusions as pertains to TRNC!



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 18:34

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Message 38 of 69 in Discussion

Winslow:



I know you would like the TRNC to be better regarded with respect to its systems and laws but no one, perhaps not even you can deny that it takes months and in many cases years to get PTP and as for title deeds I know for a fact there are people waiting for over 5 years!



The issue of 'security' you refer to is already streamlined in the UK and can be applied for quite easily with the forms being downloaded from the Internet!



The problem is not getting clearance from your home police. It is that the system is designed, deliberately or otherwise, with delays built in. Add to that the 'slowness' of processing in the public sector, allowance for 'losing' important files and related documents and you have recipe for disaster!



As for the banks - what can I say! Yes, no one knows exatly what their balance sheets look like - but it should be clear given the fact that there was in the TRNC an asset bubble as elsewhere and.... Cont'd



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 18:42

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Message 39 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd



The fact that the construction industry was in overdrive for the years from 2003 to around 2006/7 - It would not be far off the mark to say that they had lent to developers in the boom times and now just taking a drive on the east-west road you can see the landscape of half-built property and empty property not to mention the severe lack of infrastructure on many of those projects!!



I am amazed that you believe that the banks in the TRNC would have adhered to 'strcit lending ratios' when most banks in the world simply leveraged their assets irrespective of what the central banks may have demanded. It is not difficult with a little bit of financial creativity to get around any 'strict ratio' requirements and I can assure you at the time of the boom the central banks everywhere were looking the other way!



I am sure the answers will come out in the wash.



I hope I am wrong. I fear I may be right!



Tell me where do you see the property market in 2010-2012?





winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:35

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Message 40 of 69 in Discussion

MSG Mover 321 & Tenkatou

You are amazed that İ believe that the banks in the TRNC would have adhered to 'strcit lending ratios' when most banks in the world simply leveraged their assets irrespective of what the central banks may have demanded. İf there was no regulation the the three banks İ mentioned in my post earlier could have used financial creativity to get around the 'strict ratio' requirements and they would not have been put into administration. This can only imply the central bank has its finger on the pulse at present it can be no other way. After what we went through in 2000 strict rules were put in place and officals came from Turkey to monitor and administer the central bank. The Governer is from Turkey appointed by the Turkish Central Bank. İ believe each bank has some kind of compliance officers that report to the Central Bank Who report to the Turkish Central Bank of Turkey so there is not a repeat of 2000.

Con..



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:37

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Message 41 of 69 in Discussion

Turkish Banks have whethered the financial crisis better than others and the governer was proclaimed central banker of the year. No melt down İm afraid consensus is mainland turkish banks and their subsiduaries here are the best preforming with no toxic assets on there balance sheets. Now some banks on the İsland may have had a high exposure to property and are now sitting on non preforming loans you just saw some put into administration and there may be a few more the strongest will survive and we will have a better more efficent banking system creative distruction İ believe.



As for property you can take a drive on the east-west road and see the landscape of half-built property and empty property and lack of infrastructure on many of those projects. Sooner or later they will either be completed or be left to fall apart. Each project will depend on the developers investors and prospective owners to resolve each of these projects over time what ever the case may be.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:38

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Message 42 of 69 in Discussion

con..

Villa developments have alot of slack at the moment and İ canít see it recovering for at least between 4 to 7 years if it does recover. How do İ see property investment it all boils down to the numbers in good times and bad opportunities exsist. Companies and individuals have no choice but to balance their balance sheets so to speak. İf you can source cheap money and buy at bargain prices in the current market its time to invest in fixed income commercial and residential. Things are still going to be bumpy in 2010 İ expect the first signs of real recovery in 2011 the signs will be empolyment consumer demand and inflation. Normality 2012 now that does not take into account any political agreements here on the İsland or any other macro economical shocks you just have to monitor world events and there implications.

con..



measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:39

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Message 43 of 69 in Discussion

yorgozlu. how right you are why o why do these people always want to run down the TRNC . If they dislike the system so much why stay there. I think you will find if it was perfect then these guys would still find fault.



Keith.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:42

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con..

The carry trade bubble is building up. There are fears of debt defaults in Europe although İ cannot see any EU member being allowed to undermine the union the ECB will deal with it over time. And Dubai is not out of the woods yet these are the present major issues. although every day throws up different challenges.



Winslow.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:56

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Message 45 of 69 in Discussion

Msg Keith.

Thank you for agreeing with me everyone is entitled to their opinions even we don't agree they make a valuable contribution and show us a different prospective this helps us to move forward and address problems and not grow complacent. So long as different prospectives are objective...it is very important and healthy.



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:56

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Message 46 of 69 in Discussion

I fear for the future of the TRNC I genuinely do. The current worldwide finanancial crisis still has a long way to go. The UK still faces huge problems with government debt and could well be downgraded in it's ratings making the loans taken out just to stand still becoming an ever increasing burden. Greece is almost on the point of financial meltdown.



Europe, the US, Dubai have all seen massive falls in property values and knock on effects in the construction industries. The days of a holiday home abroad with the bonus of being a retirement investment nestegg are well & truly over. If the TRNC really believes another property bubble will dig them out then they must think differently. What major banks are going to finance builders of holiday homes? Who will buy these holiday homes? The negative publicity about the legal problems of the whole of Cyprus isn't going to help one iota.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 20:59

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Message 47 of 69 in Discussion

Measey:



No one is running down the TRNC but then neither are we burying our heads in the sand! Though it might have passed you by Yorguzlu agreed 100% with what I have said



Debating is not IMHO running down a place. Clearly you have a vested interest in the TRNC - as do many others but that does not preclude you or anyone else with or without a vested interest from making comments positive or not!



Seems like you may not want the dirty linen aired in public as this might put off potential investors.



Conversely, the more potential investors know the easier it is for tem to guage the risks involved.



Life in the TRNC like other places is not perfect. However, one thing is very, very clear there is a systematic and structural problem with its property sector and the corruption in its legal system is compounding the same.



Now, if you believe stating these facts is running down the TRNC then you are entitle to your view - but the facts will still be the facts nonethless



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 21:05

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Message 48 of 69 in Discussion

I would also add that the hope that property prices in the North will shoot up if there is a settlement could be false if what happens is property values in the South fall instead. The legal systems both north & south need a complete overhaul. The system of PTP serves no useful purpose and should be scrapped.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 21:10

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Message 49 of 69 in Discussion

Winslow:



Thanks for your perspective on the property market



I cannot say I am as confident as you appear to be.



What I would say is that if the TRNC took a medium to long tern strategic view it would benefit everyone over time.



My fear is that like most governments they do not look beyond the period from election to election add to that mix the 'Cyprus problem', global economic slow down, property price reality check in almost every part of the world, tighter credit, and the bad publicity surrounding the TRNC - Orams case etc., The action needed has to be radical, transparent and coherent.



You say that the new government has these credentials - to which I would say the proof of the pudding is in the eating! To date I have heard some noises of 'taking action' but I have seen very little of what the government is actually doing! If they had a plan they should be screaming about it from the roof tops!



All I have heard besides rumours is a deafening silence



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 22:18

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Message 50 of 69 in Discussion

MSG Mover 321

As a bussines man you have to have a feel for bussines you say you are not as confident as İ am. Fixed income thrives in this environment as many have not got the capabilities to purchase and have no allternative but to rent. When money is abundant prices rise and people purchase thatís what got us in this mess. You said yourself tigher credit creates a property price reality check yes reality has to be a reduction that where you step in. İf you have the means or can source cheap money. That is not to say you put all your eggs in one basket your portfolio of investments should be spread across all five asset classes. Yes you are right a medium to long tern strategic view would benefit everyone over time.



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 22:18

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Message 51 of 69 in Discussion

con..

Most governments do come in with good intentions they are accountable to the ellectorate. Towards the end if they are not successful and the writing is on the wall then they make the grab for whatever they can before an election. The action does have to be radical, transparent and coherent. İ believe this government has these credentials if they stick to their promises the proof will be in the pudding. To date you have heard some noises at least that has happened lets see what they do. If they have some proposals which İ know they do the most important thing will be to get them moving with effective legislation. Hopefully the silence as you put it will end and we will see some concrete proposals and noise.

Winslow



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
24/12/2009 22:59

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Message 52 of 69 in Discussion

the only point i would like to stress is on the lack of legal protection for homebuyers,which winslow pointed out ,



however nepotism goes on all over the world ,make no mistake.





the kktc is an easier place and much more comfortable to reside in than most countries,you have to weight up the

pros and cons,we all know about the legal system we all know the hospitals are not great ,



but living in britain has become so hard ,it,s got to a point where you must earn at all times and it gets so tiring

it,s all work ,work, work and most of it goes back to the government .





rule of law in britain is letting us down .....also.





musin



long live the kktc



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 23:03

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Message 53 of 69 in Discussion



Winslow:



I am a person who prefers to trade rather than speculate.



I understand your notion of 'fixed income' but to be honest two things you have said concern me.



Firstly, you say if you have access to 'cheap money' - It is a very big IF as the credit crunch has made cheap money particularly in the holiday homes sector almost impossible and when you couple that with the more riskier TRNC type of country - I think you know the conclusion!



Secondly, your belief that the TRNC politicians can deliver! I simply cannot see how and where this will happen. In the entire economic history of the TRNC - its main dependence has been and still remains Turkey. I have not heard or read of anything that they have proposed bar the issue of the PTP which will add any value to what is needed here. In the interim government debt has grown, investment has fallen and no sight of a radical, transparent and coherent plan.



I am a realist. I stopped believing in Santa a long time ago



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
24/12/2009 23:19

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Message 54 of 69 in Discussion

If the TRNC government does come out with such a plan I will be the forst one to congratulate them!



I hope you are correct in saying that soon we will hear what they have planned



So let's wait and see )



kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
25/12/2009 00:02

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Message 55 of 69 in Discussion

" If the TRNC government does come out with such a plan I will be the forst one to congratulate them!"

So will I, but I guess you mean 'implement', rather than 'come out with'.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 08:16

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Message 56 of 69 in Discussion

Kaiserphil: Yes, I mean exactly that - come out with and implement a radical, transparent and coherent plan



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
25/12/2009 10:28

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Message 57 of 69 in Discussion

And a 'Merry Syphillis' and a 'Happy Gonorrhoea' to all those known and unknown liars and cheats who, under the guise of a 'legal system', deprived us of our title deeds on our pre '74 Turkish Title property and, subsequently, forced us to lose half of our life savings!



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 11:00

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Message 58 of 69 in Discussion

Msg Tenakoutou

İ donít mean to pry and İ sympathise with you İ and my family suffered in the 2000 banking crisis so İ no the feeling. But can you explain a little about what happened so least others can have a useful insight and not sercumb to the same fate under the hands of these unsucruplous individivals.

Msg Mover321

Perhaps İ should just clarify. When İ said fixed income it was for the purposes of renting commercial and residential to the T/c community. The second home villa bussiness is up the proverbeal creek you wouldnít get any form of funding from any bank be it development or morgage. For all those whom are caught up in this mess as a T/c İ really hope the new year heralds a better year and something will happen for you all. What İ would like to see is some form of legislation to try and repair the damage to the exsisting industry.

con..



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 11:01

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Message 59 of 69 in Discussion

Con..

i.e a speeding of the PtP process in combination with title deeds so that at least those who have invested be it T/c or expats can obtain closure. The problem is that it has become a minefield of differing complexities of individual cases and it may be impossible to do a one size fits all policy on this matter. İf it is refered to the judicary and left to be dealt with through exsisting legislation İ would agree that we will probably experience much of the same slow process. A proposal put forward as a result of the many uncompleted properties was that vendor and purchaser should meet at banks that held title. İndividual titles should be hived off after some form of financial agreement between the two parties leaving purchasers to complete uncompleted properties or at least obtain their titles for personal peace of mind.



con..



winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 11:04

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Message 60 of 69 in Discussion

con..

The problem being so many differing senarios of perhaps pricing, planning regs, land measurements, and other vested interests. İ do not envy the person or persons that have to deal with this mess. Yes we will have to see if they can come up with some effective proposals to get the construction industry moving İ know it will be hard to deliver but lets hope they deliver something anything is better than nothing which is what we have now apart from tax encentives and some changes to plannings regs announced yesterday. Yes Turkey is our benefactor and we are dependent and remain so. The government has inherited a debt, investment has fallen but that is indicative of the global economy not just the TRNC. We do need a transparent and coherent plan less of the radical as İ have said sometimes to quick and lazzie faire is dangerous in the long run and can provke more complexities of differing senarios. We shall just have to wait and see no chioce İ afraid at present



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 11:04

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Message 61 of 69 in Discussion

I have already done so on other threads - umpteen times, so until after Xmas, I won't 'cook my cabbage twice, or thrice'!



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 13:30

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Message 62 of 69 in Discussion

Winslow:



Here's an outline 10 point plan the TRNC could implement:



1. Draw a line under existing applications.



2. For all new applications (say from 01.01.10) remove the need for PTP. Just a bonafide security check for criminal record as in Canada or Australia would suffice.



3. Max time for Title Deeds 6 months.



4. Make it a criminal offence for anyone to lodge a mortgage application to a bank or other financial institution if the property is already sold and paid for. Minimum jail term 5 years plus a hefty fine.



5. Charge a new tax of say 10% on all sales and place in a trust fund for possible compensation to GC.



6. Remove the differences between TC / GC / Exchange land or property.



7. Where planning permission is required streamline process so applications are dealt with within 6 month from date of application and ensure that no plans can be submitted before infrastructure is installed - water, electricity, sewage, roads.



Cont'd...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 13:34

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Message 63 of 69 in Discussion

Cont'd



8. Applications prior to 01.01.10. Create an investigation team to deal with issues raised.



9. Fast track any application (older) with a legal dispute with a maximum 6 months for reresolution through the courts. Set a target date for clearing all backlog of PTP and Title Deeds - say, maximum 1 year.



10. Prosecute those builders who have built without planning permission, failed to install infrastructure - water, roads, electricty fine and or prison sentence.



This is just an outline and I am sure many here can improve what I have said.



If implemented you will within a year or so restore some trust to the system, increase potential investor interest and remove the rogues who have plagued this beautiful part of Cyprus!



Is it too much to ask?



kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
25/12/2009 13:59

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Message 64 of 69 in Discussion

How about some form of action against banks who knowingly give mortgages against property which they know has been bought and paid for?



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 14:03

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Message 65 of 69 in Discussion

Kaiserphil:



Good idea - a hefty penalty for not investigating properly any mortgage application from a developer Plus a naming and shaming of the bank concerned.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
25/12/2009 14:10

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Message 66 of 69 in Discussion

If an advocate prepares and issues a contract/document, costing the client a substantial sum, that isn't worth the paper it's written on and the victim (read 'client') incurs severe financial losses as a result, what would be CY44 contributors' suggestions/message to the government be to rectify this all too common problem?



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
25/12/2009 14:23

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Message 67 of 69 in Discussion

Tenakoutou:



I agree with you 100%. A system that penalises the lawyers involved would also be a useful tool



I just feel that unless something radical is done - the TRNC maybe slipping into a steep decline - yes, even further then where it is now!



I don't pretend that C44 can change much - but it is a platform and one that many expats use. We can complain but sometimes we can also make suggestions or we can simply pack up and leave!



Somehow, somewhere, we have got to take a stand - so we do not get more of what happened to you.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
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Message Posted:
28/12/2009 10:13

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Message 68 of 69 in Discussion

Let's face it, Moover321, with the best will in the world, I think we can all forget there being any chance for change for the better.



In such a small place, the high level of nepotism and corruption will preclude any legislation being implemented against exploitation.



Don't forget the family feud factor - Cyprus wasn't called 'Little Sicily' for no good reason!



How I so wish to be proved wrong - but 28 years on the island tells me otherwise.



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
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Message Posted:
28/12/2009 13:14

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Message 69 of 69 in Discussion

Tenakoutou:



You may well be correct - I guess we all live between hope and fear



28 Years on the island gives you a better insight though I too hope you are wrong - but my suspicion is you may be right!



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