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swimming pool heat exchanger

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pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 14:23

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Message 1 of 32 in Discussion

Hi Guys, anyone know if I can buy a heat exchanger in Cyprus , so I can use my house heating for heating pool in spring and autumn. Also sizing, how many btu,s for 10x5 , 1 m slopping to 2.1m pool. many thanks

p



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 14:51

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Message 2 of 32 in Discussion

http://www.furnacecompare.com/room-air-conditioners/





Have a good un Paul.



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 15:04

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Message 3 of 32 in Discussion

Thanks Paul, found Uk site for sizing suggesting 150/180 cu metres 260/275 k btu exchanger



pipebender


Joined: 22/05/2009
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 20:33

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Message 4 of 32 in Discussion

Hi pilgrim the pools that have delt with have had two boilers fitted in line and they were doing the job ok but were costing around £100 a week to run. Why not try heat pumps or exchaingers a lot less to run.



k8ty2210


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 20:43

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Message 5 of 32 in Discussion

We have a heat exchanger connected to our Baxi combi boiler to heat our pool ,its a waste of time .Its like running a Rolls Royce car its for ever eating money. It needs to be on for days in the winter to heat it satisfactory,we've never got it warm enough to go in now .My husband turned it off after 24hours as it wasn't even lukewarm,having said that it did take the chill off when we were here at the end of October but everyone we've spoken to in pools have said heated pools are a waste of money here unless you have a loads of it.The idea is good in principle but not practical .



JohhnyLee


Joined: 25/04/2009
Posts: 2495

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 20:54

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Message 6 of 32 in Discussion

Some of our friends spent alot of money having a seperate gas boiler fitted, to heat their pool here, i warned them at the time about the cost, (and these people aint short of few hundred grand)



They tried it for a short time and it is now redunant, It used gas to the tune of around £600 pound per month.



k8ty2210


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 20:56

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Message 7 of 32 in Discussion

we spent about £300 worth of gas and had 1 swim!!!!!!!!!!!!!



pipebender


Joined: 22/05/2009
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 21:18

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Message 8 of 32 in Discussion

If you are going to heat a pool the best option is a heat pump.



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 22:22

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Message 9 of 32 in Discussion

K8ty2210. thanks for info, only wanted to use it in April/May and October/November to keep it at about 27/28 degrees, possible?



keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
28/12/2009 22:43

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Message 10 of 32 in Discussion

I suspect that Vaughan will be along any time now, but in the meantime

1) 27/28 deg C. seems very hot (to me ) - I have my central heating (& aircon) set to around 23 deg.

2) I think that your first aim should be to conserve the heat in your pool - that is, both the heat supplied by the sun, and the heat supplied by whatever other system you decide to use (and pay for!)

It would seem that the best way to do this is by means of a pool cover - see various threads on this subject

3) I am fairly sure that Vaughan will tell you that a heat pump is is the most efficient (and thus possibly cheaper in the long term, dependent upon annual usage) method of heating-Of course if you only wanted to heat your pool for one day's use a year, you would be better off boiling a kettle

4) I have come to the (reluctant) conclusion that we would all be better off (financially as well as space-wise) if we trotted off down to one of the local hotels/hostelries to use their pool instead...



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 00:48

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Message 11 of 32 in Discussion

Thanks Keith for Views , I agree about hotels, good idea. Thought 27/28 was normal pool temperature, I understood sea was about 26.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 15:14

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Message 12 of 32 in Discussion

Whichever method you use to heat your pool, you must retain that heat when the pool is not in use. Failure to do this will mean that you will probably lose overnight almost as much as you put in during the day. A "bubble-wrap" cover is one way but there is also a liquid cover available, although this really only works well on a skimmer pool.

As with air conditioning, air-to-water heat-pumps are the most cost effective way of heating your pool. Gas/oil/electric boilers with heat exchangers can only ever have a Coefficient of Performance of 1:1 or less, i.e. you burn a kW of fuel and you get a kW of heat. With a heat pump you can have a CoP of 4:1, with the extra heat coming from the sun via the surrounding air. This heat is free and with a CoP of 4:1 you burn 1 kW of electricity and you get 4 kW of heat.

There is a big however about now and it is that the capital cost of a heat-pump could be about 5000 pounds fitted. A simple immersion type pool heater may come in at about 1500 pound



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 15:29

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Message 13 of 32 in Discussion

12 cont./



As you really don't want to heat the pool in summer or swim in the depths of winter, you will probably only want to extend your swimming season by a month or so either side, spring and autumn. So, for 2 months of the year you might want to heat your pool. The running cost of an immersion heater might be 4 times that of a heat-pump but it will only be for 2 months. So, you might use a few hundred pounds worth more electricity in a year but the saving on the installation cost of 3500 pounds buys an awful lot of electricity.

It sounds awfully un-green but in this instance it is the capital cost v. running cost that needs looking at carefully.



jesusjon



Joined: 03/08/2008
Posts: 93

Message Posted:
29/12/2009 18:48

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Message 14 of 32 in Discussion

Hi.I see know one seems to be mentioning solar heating for there pools,with the large black plastic come rubber solar panels worked succesfully for years in areas like florida but as trncvaughan says pool cover is the first priority.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 10:14

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Message 15 of 32 in Discussion

Solar pool heaters are big, ugly and cost about 4000 pounds to supply and install. Solar heaters need to be about 60% the area of the pool. So, if your pool is 8x4 its area is 32m2. 60% of that is about 20m2 or 2m x 10m. That's a big panel and you need to find a place for it. Solar heaters also only give you what God sends and that might not be enough.



MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 10:31

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Message 16 of 32 in Discussion

A bubble wrap pool cover is what you need - we still had 27c in October



Mark



joanie1


Joined: 25/07/2008
Posts: 164

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:55

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Message 17 of 32 in Discussion

I enquired the cost of a swim in the indoor pool at the Mercure - includes use of spa but no treatments - 50 lira per entrance. Ada Hotel quoted 30 lira.



jesusjon



Joined: 03/08/2008
Posts: 93

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:56

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Message 18 of 32 in Discussion

Hi, Have had a car port biult singlle pitch roof,almost same size as pool serves two purposes keeps car in the shade and faces south for solar panels,Solar panels coming over from uk at a price well below 2k pipework from pool is already in place,hoping to fit as soon as mains electric is connected which is in process of been done at this moment in time.Cant see why it wont work fitted similar system at fathers bungalow in florida 15yrs ago still works perfect. will let you know how things go when it is installed.

John.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:36

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Message 19 of 32 in Discussion

Please keep me informed about the costs as I would be very interested to see how it works out. What was the cost of the car port as most people might not have one and this needs to be taken into account.



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:43

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Message 20 of 32 in Discussion

Thanks Vaughan, Interested in immersion heater option, but as have central heating wouldn.t boiler/ heat exchanger system offer same results for cheaper capitol cost?

regards

P



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 12:28

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Message 21 of 32 in Discussion

Hi Pilgrim,



As you already have a boiler, your capital cost will be much lower. If you know the capacity of your boiler (Btu) a heat exchanger could be sized. If you only wanted to extend your swimming into spring/autumn, your boiler might suffice, but you wouldn't be able to heat your pool and run your central heating at the same time.



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 15:39

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Message 22 of 32 in Discussion

Hi Vaughan,

Have 85000 btu boiler, uk site says need heat exchanger of 260000 btu to heat 10x5 pool, do you agree and can you supply one.

regards

p



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 15:50

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Message 23 of 32 in Discussion

I can't argue with you about the figures so I will say that we could supply and fit an 85000Btu heat exchanger, and it would heat your pool but I'm not sure how the shortfall in Btu would manifest itself, other than rate of temp increase, which would no doubt be slower.

Pleae give me a link to the UK site you refer to.



Hatty


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:46

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Message 24 of 32 in Discussion

Don't copper and chlorine react when hot?



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:48

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Message 25 of 32 in Discussion

Heat exchangers are stainless steel



jesusjon



Joined: 03/08/2008
Posts: 93

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 19:07

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Message 26 of 32 in Discussion

Hi Trnc vaughan,Carport is timber with felt shingles to give flat surface for solar panels,Sorry at this moment in time cant remember the exact cost of carport as it was done as part of a deal with biulder but will let you know overall costs when up and running.

John.



notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/01/2010 21:51

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Message 27 of 32 in Discussion

Hi my mate installs heat pump systems in the uk and i asked him to comment on this thread and his reply is as follows.

Firstly, heating a pool with gas is madness unless you are very rich and donít care about any possible future carbon tax that is likely to be imposed and money is no object. With gas for every 1kw input you will only get a max of0.8- 0.9kw output. Cost of gas will continue to rise.

Air Source Heat Pump. Some heat pump manufactures claim COPs of 6 +. (Coefficient of performance).

Many of these claims are way off mark, mainly cheap imports from China. Only look at heat pumps that have been certified under the Micro Generation Certification scheme. These have been tested to ensure that they meet the manufactures claims. A COP of 3.6 is about average for the uk season. (1kw input 3.6kw output)In Cyprus this would be higher as the average air temperature is higher.



notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/01/2010 21:54

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Message 28 of 32 in Discussion

As will all heating installations the key to efficiency is the level of insulation. Swimming pools must have bubble covers on to keep the heat in when not in use.

There is little point in installing a heat pump just to heat your pool. It is better to use it to heat your property as well as providing all your hot water needs.

Although the initial purchase cost is quite high (around £2200 for 7-12kw heat pump and further £1000 for dedicated hot water cylinder) there is a pay back period set against other types of fuel.

The electrical energy used to power the pump is purely to run the inverter driven compressor. The heat output is of course harvested from the surrounding air, the warmer the air the less electrical energy used to harvest it. The pay back period is significantly less than any solar collector and unlike solar it will work in conditions down to -20degC day or night.



notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/01/2010 21:57

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Message 29 of 32 in Discussion

As heat pumps work differently to a gas fired boilers they are generally set to run for longer periods of time. In hot water mode they will achieve temperatures of 55degC. In heating mode they are looking at the surrounding air temp and comparing that with the internal air temp. It then works out how much energy it needs to bring the temp up to your thermostat setting only using what is required(weather compensation) .



Thats it

i am having one fitted later on in the year when we arrive as i have had CH fitted (busmans holiday for my mate who is earning a holiday) and when it is in i will let anyone interested know the outcome.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 12:49

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Message 30 of 32 in Discussion

Hi notthereyet,



Heat pumps generally don't make water hot enough for winter CH (LTHW) but at 55C it is enough for washing in (DHWS). As Pilgrim already has a gas boiler for CH, a heat exchanger for his pool heating is probably the way to go, and as he will only be using it for 2 months in 12, the running cost might be acceptable. What make is your heat pump and where did you get it from?

ps I suspect that at 12kW you may be undersizing your heat-pump a bit. Get someone to run the numbers again for you.



notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 14:47

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Message 31 of 32 in Discussion

Hi My Model is the Mitsibushi Ecodan W85 which has COP of 2.95 a max capacity of 9kw with a 2.34kw power input for heating at an outside temp of +2 and a flow rate of 25.8 litres/min. If i could afford it i would have the HW140 for belts and braces but the people who know have assured me that this unit will serve my requirements.

My UK properties water and heating are both set below 55 and i hope i dont meet these conditions in Cyprus, although i do take into consideration of the lack of insulation in the builds.

I already had a gas boiler fitted in Cyprus ordered at the Off Plan phase and didnt know of this stuff then so i am having this system installed in parallel to it and will use the bottle gas as back up in power cuts etc.

I will revisit the numbers again as you said before my container leaves and as i have said i will give out the results of my plan to any interested parties when tested.



pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
03/01/2010 17:12

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Message 32 of 32 in Discussion

Vaughan is correct only want to extend season both ends, Have previous experience of heat pump, I agree they are the best option and although they will heat pool in february and March it takes 2/3days even with cover on. Therefore, as weather is still changable and often windy, cost can be £50/60 for a single swim , ok if theres a group, but not just me and partner.



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