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Boycott north Cyprus builders refusing to accept court judgements?

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malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:00

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Message 1 of 46 in Discussion

"...many property owners feel that if the legal system is unable to bring justice, or is too expensive to use, then perhaps other more immediate and inexpensive means should be used..."

Read more at http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/01/07/boycott-north-cyprus-builders-refusing-to-accept-court-judgements



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:15

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Message 2 of 46 in Discussion

Is it not too late?

ismet



negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:15

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Message 3 of 46 in Discussion

"yow'll never change nuthing" as me old Uncle Percy used to say...



No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:19

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Message 4 of 46 in Discussion

"This attitude has so incensed other property buyers that some are now suggesting that a database of builders should be put together along with other businesses related to them and that this be published in order that those wishing to boycott them could do so"



Thats a great idea. It should make a few builders sit up and take notice!



negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:49

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Message 5 of 46 in Discussion

no 1 - the damage is done old boy - the market is on its knees now...



No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 15:51

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Message 6 of 46 in Discussion

There was a thread yesterday that said that property sales were 'buoyantish'



Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 17:09

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Message 7 of 46 in Discussion

Bill



RE msg 4



This was already done when the Home Buyers Pressure Group initially set up as Im sure Mal will confirm.



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 18:33

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Message 8 of 46 in Discussion

Stubs, when HBPG started in September 2005 we star-rated builders etc. This had such an impact that a group of Girne Advocates threatened to sue me personally for 200,000, as owner of the website, unless I stopped. Because the some of the HBPG committee did not want to upset the lawyers and were looking to set up the now defunct Property Complaints Office, there was no support for me carrying on.



The current idea expressed in the article is to focus of builders who refuse to pay up after a judge has found against them. The beauty of this approach is that they have already been found guilty and so there is no argument about whether they are in the wrong.



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 19:13

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Message 9 of 46 in Discussion

So why not set up a campaign thru NCFP and this forum.



Why wait for someone else to set the ball rolling



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 19:31

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Message 10 of 46 in Discussion

NCFP is happy for people to send us articles/comments about court cases they have won but have not received compensation. THEY can name the builders etc involved and can tell us of any connected businesses. NCFP will not be recommending a boycott but I'm sure that those with unresolved property problems and their local friends will make comments along those lines. Plus we'll create a suitable heading under the PROPERTY button on NCFP.

I doubt that this forum is a suitable place for a campaign.

Personally, I believe this issue will quickly disappear because of apathy. People prefer to believe that the HBPG will fight their case when that is not what its function is.



wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 20:55

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Message 11 of 46 in Discussion

It sounds a damned good idea to me. Do members not think that proposed buyers should be warned off.?



What ever happenned to community spirit?



wynyardman



greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 20:59

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Message 12 of 46 in Discussion

Anything that gives parity to buyers has to be a good thing dont just lie down and take this crap from the home builders/developers,

Grey.



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 21:21

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Message 13 of 46 in Discussion

I think the fact that a builder can do what they did to the Vangos, lose a court case and then still get away with it tells us why they do what they do. Wynyardman, I'm afraid no one is going to do any more than just talk on these forums. As you can see from msg8, I did something and then found out that I was virtually on my own. Not long ago Pauline Read said she was ready to take on the banks about them mortgaging already sold properties, she had a trickle of support and a lot of flack.



wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 21:39

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Message 14 of 46 in Discussion

malsancak,



I note, with light amusement your comments. I too have just commenced on the the path of property ownership , via litigation in The TRNC. My case would be impeccable under UK Law.



I have been warned off of corruption in the legal system. I remain of the view that things are changing for the better. I guess only



time will tell. It is all so stressful, that anyone who NOW buys property in the TRNC must need their bumps felt.



wynyardman



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 21:42

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Message 15 of 46 in Discussion

Stressful, now that's an understatement!

NCFP now has a PROPERTY category called IGNORED JUDGMENTS just waiting for mini-articles if anyone wants to add the the Vangos' story.



scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 23:03

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Message 16 of 46 in Discussion

I personally know another couple who took their "builder" to court. This was around 2006 as I recall & it took at least 2 years to reach court. The case was actually started around 2004. Anyway they won the case. Their story was front page in Cyprus Today. The judge awarded a lower figure than that claimed because he said "their finished property was worth more than it had cost them in total" Now what did that have to do with it? The builder had taken the money quoted in full, but failed to finish the house. This meant that they had to spend more money to complete it.

End result. They did receive a few thousand from another party in the case. The remainder (substantial sum) was never paid & hasn't been to this day. What they did receive was used to pay the legal fees. So they won but they lost.

So what is the point of winning a judgment if it isn't or cannot be enforced?



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
07/01/2010 23:18

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Message 17 of 46 in Discussion

Scruff, that's what the NCFP article is saying. Court cases take time and money and are generally unsuccessful in getting a payout. Boycotting is quick and free.



scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 00:36

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Message 18 of 46 in Discussion

Boycotting would only work in a few cases. Beydola has another business whose products are available to the General Public. This is not usually the case.



Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 00:54

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Message 19 of 46 in Discussion

scruff maybe not for much longer xx



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 09:02

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Message 20 of 46 in Discussion

Malcolm,



Both of us have the same aim, possibily from differing directions.



In msg 10 you make the valid point - "People prefer to believe that the HBPG will fight their case when that is not what its function is. " The general aim is to help people fight THEIR cases, giving all the information of how to and where to etc. I get the distinct impression that some go to Marian expecting that she or someone will do all the work for them. In my opinion given the right info, not views expressed on forums, a lot more people would probably make some progress.



You also make the point in Msg 13 about Paulines case. APATHY RULES OK!!!!!!!!!



Is it fear of the authorities or what, that people will not take positive action either on their own behalf or to help others. Speaking personally we have had our mug shots taken at a couple of "organised" events. So what. We were acting totally within the law. cont.....



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 09:11

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Message 21 of 46 in Discussion

cont..



I think you know I was being some what flippant about setting up "lists" cos we know what will happen.....zippo! Everyone is so scared of potential hassle but if things are done correctly then to the large majority of people there is no concern. However if you go about things the wrong way, not taking advice etc you WILL expect problems.



I know there is a large majorityof people who have had little or no problems but there is a sizeable minority with big problems. First those people should all come out of the closet and make their issues known in whatever form is felt appropriate. Second those that have been lucky enough to have no problems must come out and support the rest.



I am not offering any views on what this may be, I am not an organiser nor capable due to health to take the front line. But there must be others who can come out and support people like Marian at HBPG and to make a start, as Malcolm appears prepared to do digging on the press front.



David



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 10:27

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Message 22 of 46 in Discussion

well said, cyprusishome. HBPG helps people help themselves and NCFP is a platform for communicating what these people want to do in order to help themselves. Well people, whinge or win, what is it to be?



Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:12

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Message 23 of 46 in Discussion

Thanks for clarifying the situation Mal.



Not that sure that it would work although it would attract some bad publicity to the TRNC. Most of the dishonest builders would just shut of shop and start again under a different name.



What would be a better system would be a list of builders who are honest and do the job that they have been paid to do. For years I have said that an NHBC system similiar to one in the UK would be the best way to do things. Builders would have to put up a bond to the government incase they went bankrupt and properties could be finished. It would be then up to the NHBC to rectify the problems of which the builder has caused and then hold that builder liable for the costs. That way buyers would have more protection. As the stage payment system is used widely on new builds buyers would have more confidence if they had a certificate to show that the work had been done and that their (NHBC) standards had been reached.



Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:13

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Message 24 of 46 in Discussion

How many buyers would prefer to use a system like that even if it did cost more money to build their house?



scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:18

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Message 25 of 46 in Discussion

I really hate to be negative but can't really see that working here somehow.



elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:08

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Message 26 of 46 in Discussion

Boycotts are a risk, all builders on the list can immediately claim loss of business and sue for slander or libel. Given that a number of them know what is being said here and by whom, and I have first hand evidence of that, this road would put any organiser in the firing line and probably result in the forum being taken off the air.

The problem is all about regulation and that is where it would have to start. Official regulation of the builders by a body with teeth. This is a very small island, and tradespeople are part of a network. Even when they are "crooked" or at least sliding down the line, they still get away with it because "their own" will not turn against them, which is unfortunate for us victims.

I would ask the question of everyone who (like me) has a property problem, "Did you get a survey done by a member of the Chamber of Architects?" If not, why not? I have to hold my hand up and say that to some extent it was probably therefore a mess of my own making.

TonyE



clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 20:16

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Message 27 of 46 in Discussion

hi stubbs totaly agree

lets praise the good builders.



malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 21:50

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Message 28 of 46 in Discussion

NCFP will not be suggesting a boycott, even though the original article has a DON'T BUY image which was there to express what others were saying. NCFP would merely state that ABC builder lost a court case and is refusing to pay up, and that they also have these other businesses and have recently closed down ABC and opened DEF. Anyone suggesting a boycott would be extremely rash, a boycott would harm the builder's businesses and could even force them to close down so they can no longer build villas to the same standard that the Vangos' villa was built.



Marilyn


Joined: 29/08/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
22/05/2010 18:01

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Message 29 of 46 in Discussion

The original 'Name and Shame' List as published by the HBPG, but then removed due to threats, can still be seen at

http://www.north-cyprus-property.org/name_and_shame.htm



HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
22/05/2010 22:46

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Message 30 of 46 in Discussion

It does not appear to make any different.

Ca Sa (mentioned in the above name and shame) was part owned by Cafer Yucelgazi, but my advocate Mustafa Sener - Sener Law Firm failed to informed me that:

a) Cafer Yucelgazi was an unregistered builder,

b) there was no build permit for the property/ies

c) the landowner Hasan Sungur had not signed the contract (he is the architect of the 2008 property law)

d) as a result of 'c' the property was not registered

e) we paid 4500 for electric, however - no build permit = no electric - but Sener's took the money

f) the property is now falling into disrepair and Cafer has walked away from it BUT

HE is now building in Lefkosia

HAS an office in Lefkosia

IS apparently now a registered builder - even though he is black-listed (see local press) and on the name and shame list

HOW did my advocate not know about it - or - was he part of the scam?????



HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
22/05/2010 22:47

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Message 31 of 46 in Discussion

ANYONE know where Cafer is?

DO NOT BUY FROM THIS MAN



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
23/05/2010 17:41

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Message 32 of 46 in Discussion

If it was possible I would post a list in national UK press with all the builders names from here and tell folk not to buy anything in TRNC or Roc until the governments sort out ALL the issues.



Did anyone read Ipek's brilliant article in Cyprus Today 22 May, if not get a copy as it is too long to reproduce it here.



She pulls no punches but as too few of you here are prepared to do she indicates to get out and do something. Her focus was on Akfinans HQ and standing outside the place.



Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
23/05/2010 18:17

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Message 33 of 46 in Discussion

Hi David I read her report and at long last someone knows what goes on and is not scared to speak about it, however with the publicity generated do you think that us who will protest will be arrested, i am told this may be the case. Im sorry to say that as I feel very strongly like you do but fear could put peopke off, i hope not xx



negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
24/05/2010 17:06

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Message 34 of 46 in Discussion

its like shutting the lid to Pandora's box mate....



You won't change things...



nilmoney


Joined: 29/12/2008
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
24/05/2010 21:09

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Message 35 of 46 in Discussion

Perhaps a list of good honest reliable builders would be better!



I'll start it off



ahmmmmmmm!



Blimey someone help me out here!



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 03:24

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Message 36 of 46 in Discussion

cyprusishome



no point in posting a list in UK press. and telling people not to buy in TRNC,

The information is all there on the internet and if people who are thinking about buying in the TRNC cant be bothered researching then they are unlikely to bother reading what you would have to say either.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 06:17

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Message 37 of 46 in Discussion

girne29/Msg36: I must agree with you!



There are always those 'with the bit between their teeth and totally blinkered' that have built up in their minds a scenario of 'my villa in the sun'.



They don't even want to know the pitfalls, or in the case of Cyprus, the political situation.



Add to that their innate belief that UK legislation must surely apply in Cyprus, too; and there you have a steady core stream of buyers - the majority of whom 'sail through', devoid of all but the most minor problems.



To draw an analogy:



You can trust your money to your chosen fund manager, but statistics prove that you've just as much chance of making a successful investment in stocks and bonds as this 'professional' has!



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 07:57

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Message 38 of 46 in Discussion

Liz,



I do not think it is fear, it is largely an English thing - APATHY. I am not a lover of the French and some of their methods but I think they are a brilliant race when it comes to taking action. They blockade ports, routinely have mass demos and best of all - they get everyone to joing THEIR club ie the EU but they ignore all the rules they do not like with impunity.



girne29,



spot on how, unfortunatly how many times do you here, I did my research but I was reassured by - solicitor, builder, the village idiot etc. You feel like throttling these people. MY comment was a wish or hope, but as you imply - pie in the sky.



Last line of msg 37



And you will have paid said professional an arm and a leg gain or loose.



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 14:05

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Message 39 of 46 in Discussion

message 37,38

Sometimes people only want info that re-inforces their decision to buy a place in the sun, and shy away from anything 'bad'.

Look at all the info such as this thread, no title deeds,electric/water connections,blackmail regarding vendors taxes and no legal protection, and yet, we still get people coming on here ,who ask if they should buy off plan or buy already built with Title deed in owners name.



Sites like this are invaluable ,as no where else will you get the negative.

I am looking at property in Portugal and already have seen, from estate agent 1,Property in Algarve is still a good investment as it has kept up in value during the downturn, unlike other areas of Portugal.

Estate agent 2, It is now a good time to buy in the Algarve as it has suffered more than other areas due to the high reliance on holiday home purchase, therefore reductions of up to 30% are common.



So which is it ,good to buy because of falling prices. or because prices havent fallen?



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 22:45

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Message 40 of 46 in Discussion

girne29:



I hope you realise that burglary is rife on the Algarve. We nearly bought a ville in Pria de Luz, but didn't, as the neighbour warned us that it had been burgled about 5 times - every time a holiday let was finished, or the owner left. You need to check this out!



At least it's not prevalent in TRNC.



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 23:01

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Message 41 of 46 in Discussion

msg 35;

http://www.kofaliconstruction.com/



deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 23:32

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Message 42 of 46 in Discussion

In 2004 HMPG lauded someone who managed to get a judgment against a builder. When I said do not get oo excited until you have managed to enforce it I was told to shut up and sit down. Since that time many of us have been rubber dicked by builders, solicitors, courts, and many who have managed to get deeds have been subjected to years of stress and additional large quantities of monies to arrive at that point. Were the "new estate agents laws" a way of passing the judiciaries responsibilities for land matters onto estate agents ? There are recent examples of a lack of equality for foreigners being passed into law. The question I ask myself is "if there ever is some settlement between North and South including land matters and perhaps even separate states will foreigners with title deeds be treated equally"? When there were discussions in progress, such as with the defunct Annan plan, PTP approvals came to a halt and, the position for foreign buyers in the South is similar.



deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
25/05/2010 23:35

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Message 43 of 46 in Discussion

In 2004 HBPG lauded someone who managed to get a judgment against a builder. When I said do not get excited until you have managed to enforce it I was told to shut up and sit down. Since that time many of us have been rubber dicked by builders, solicitors, courts, and many who have managed to get deeds have been subjected to years of stress and additional large quantities of monies to arrive at that point. Were the "new estate agents laws" a way of passing the judiciaries responsibilities for land matters onto estate agents ? There are recent examples of a lack of equality for foreigners being passed into law. The question I ask myself is "if there ever is some settlement between North and South including land matters and perhaps even separate states will foreigners with title deeds be treated equally"? When there were discussions in progress, such as with the defunct Annan plan, PTP approvals came to a halt and, the position for foreign buyers in the South is similar. Why ?



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
26/05/2010 01:15

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Message 44 of 46 in Discussion

tenakoutou



Thanks, I didnt know that.Funnily enough Praia de luz is one of my favourites stayed there a few times,but for a holiday rather than long term. Nearby, in Lagos is where I prefer if it was for normal living.



HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
26/05/2010 06:47

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Message 45 of 46 in Discussion

When we came over to look at properties we thought we had done our homework. We had heard the horror stories but we were so cleverly set up by the

- Advocate Sener Law Firm (supposedly working on our behalf)

- Cafer Yucelgazi (a builder who was not registered and has left 'unfinished' properties all over TRNC

- Landowner Hasan Sungur

-who has failed to sign the contract and therefore prevent us from getting the properties registeed under the law he wrote.

- Allowed an unregistered builder to build on his land with no building permit

- Allowed the builder to change the site plans to his favour after the properties were sold

Why don't people NAME the people involved on this site?



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
26/05/2010 09:33

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Message 46 of 46 in Discussion

HildySmith/Msg 45:



'Why don't people NAME the people involved on this site?'



The answer is simple:



Because TRNC is not in the EU and foreigners, even though EU citizens, are only 'temporary visitors' - not citizens. Therefore, one's visa can be revoked and the person deported, if Immigration feel so inclined, and without reason given, as it was in the South before they joined EU.



In the South, all citizens are EU citizens and, ostensibly, have equal rights - although we all know that when litigation and a number of other factors are involved, 'foreigners' don't. But, at least, they can't be deported on a whim.



'Making waves' in TRNC is highly inadvisable - especially when 'important' people are involved.



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