Why isn't land parcellised before building begins on developments?

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 16:17

Hi all,



I have just been reading that new legislation has been passed this week, which allows deeds for properties to be issued once contracts have been signed. This is very good news, as this will stop builders from being able to take out mortgages etc. on the properties already sold and paid for. I would think the the lawyer you employ will hold the title deeds until ptp has been given. This is all brilliant news but we have been waiting for more than 4 years for our deeds and have had our ptp for 2 years. The holdup is parcellisation, why does this take so long and what can we do as owners do about it? Why isn't land parcellised before building begins, wouldn't this be more sensible?





The butlers wife

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 16:27

In the past it's all been done arse about face - this is a step in the right direction but won't really help those who already have problems!



G

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 16:29

No because it would be too easy and involve common sense

sorry for flippant comment

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 18:08

The new law is a good step in the right direction however unless they get rid of the reqirement for PTP, it will be useless for the "aliens". Let me explain:

Once the plans are approved it will be possible to issue title deeds for houses to be built. So when you go to buy a new house, you will be put in touch with a financing company who will guarantee the builder his full money as he builds it. Hence there will be an agreement with the buyer, the financier and the developer. The buyer will have the title deeds and then he will mortgage it to the financier. The financier, in return, will undertakle to pay the developer in stages as he builds it. If the buyer defaults in payments, the financier will be able to take over the building and sell it to someone else. The mortgage will be his security. Even if the buyer defaults in payments, the finance company will pay the developer as he completes the stages. If the developer defaults in any way, the financier will be able to take over the project and give it to another developer.

Hence the only snag is the PTP for the foreigners. Perhaps the finance company will hold the title deeds in trust for them.

ismet

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 18:39

I have no faith in this new law. Will a "temporary" kocan take precedent over the original kocan? What happens if the builder wants the kocan back before completion or he backs out? Seems to me more about finding ways of financing the builder than offering protection to the buyer! PTP is to remain unchanged so what can happen in the mean time?

I find this statement worrying:

Soner Yetkili stated that his Association have drafted a new law which would give buyers a “temporary” kocan immediately upon them making the first stage payment. Under this law parcelisation must be completed and a separate kocan issued for each property. This would allow construction companies to borrow working capital on any unsold properties, the loans would be repaid as and when these properties were sold. The law, which has yet to be approved by Parliament, would also protect buyers who have not yet received their title deeds.

Why make things so complicated?

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 18:50

Hi Bradus,



I was interested in your last sentence, " The law, which has yet to be approved by Parliament, would also protect buyers who have not yet received their title deeds." I understood this new legislation has already been passed but as nobody can force the builders/developers to hand over deeds, how is this any better than what we already have. The law needs to be changed, so that builders have to hand over the deeds to the buyers lawyer on signing their contract and held until ptp is given. Parcellisation should be carried out before building work commences. Only then will foreign buyers feel confident in purchasing in the TRNC. No Kokan, No money.



The butlers wife

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 19:15

Butler,



I need to do more research on this. People do not want to be fooled a second time. Remember the introduction of the Registration of Contracts which turned out not to protect against memorandums? Lets not forget the Property Complaints Office and ask why the new Task Force will do any better? Do they have more clout?



Why do I see this as no more than a desperate attempt to reassure buyers by introducing new laws which when operational will still leave the property market at the mercy of unscrupulous builders and advocates?



No money, no kocan should be the only acceptable way forward and the kocan not being some fobbed off temporary one!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 19:42

Any one got any good links on the new laws?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 19:47

Bradus,



I was talking to Marian on Tuesday about this and the law strestches to 26 pages!!! She has been told if she wants an English copy she will have to pay herself to get it translated.



The way I read the initial notes is you get a temp kocan to prevent impediments being placed on the land. So why make a 26 page document when all you have to do is place a note in Land Registry "this land is bought" and that once that is there nobody can do anything further. But that would be too simple!!!!!!



David

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 20:00

The way I see it at the moment is that on completion of purchase of your property the developer hands over the title deeds to the land only and is responsible for submitting any revised plans to the Land Registry Office and then they will come out and measure up to make sure the completed properties conform to submitted drawings, ( 9 times out of 10 they do not and the whole process has to start again. But if you have your shared title deeds then you are almost there. The situation with myself and my neighbours is that there are 4 villas on two separate plots of land, One of my neighbours had a swimming pool put in after completion (and not by the constructor) that has delayed their parcelisation because the land registry knew nothing about the pool. In my case In my innocence I asked the people onsite that were building my villa to change the location of my drive and of course they did but the original submitted drawings (for building/planning permission) did not reflect the changes.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 20:01

message 1



I have also had ptp for 2/3 years and have not tiltle deeds and at present an ongoing court case.All circumstances are differant and not sure of yours I only can comment on mine.



I live in a complexd ofappartments and you can be issued with a tile deed entitling you to a specific portion of the land i.e. if theres 20 apts then 1/20th transferred to you. when parcellisation is completed which should be the builders obligation to submit and all necessary taxes paid so dont hold your breath! It is then inspected to check its built as per plans then the parcellisation is finalised and your 1/20th is then transferred into your specific apartment . that is what I have been informed . Some people want the complete kocan with the apt in their own name and hopefully wait but whilst waiting the kocan is still in builders name so I would rather have a 1/20th of the land than nothing. As it stands we will probably have to complete the parcellisation ourselves

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 20:14

Cont:

All 4 owners have their shared land title deeds (so the builder has no interest in the land and cannot do anything else with the land) and because drawings have to be re-submitted then parcelisation has to start all over again. One other major problem is if you change the 'covered area' i.e. putting up roofs over patio areas prior to parcelisation then you also void the parcelisation process even installing a shed would void the process but that may have been relaxed now. At the moment the simple rule is if your application has been submitted but the Land Registry office has not been out to measure up then do not make any significant changes that would cause them to reject the application.

AJ

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 20:36

The problem is most builders/developers do not hand over shared kocans to the buyers after their properties have been built. We didn't buy off plan but we did buy on a complex (big mistake never again) 2 years after receiving ptp still no parcellisation done or any kind of deeds issued. Will the new legislation make builders hand over deeds? I am beginning to think that they are all hanging on to these deeds to see what happens in the peace talks, could I be on to something? After all, if it all goes belly up, they will save themselves a packet won't they in taxes.



The butlers wife





The butlers wife

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 20:50

msg 4 Elko



I take it therefore this new law also will end the memorandums as the title deeds will be in purchasers names . Is there anything that helps the present problems that purchasers have had and still got?



msg 13



When you purchased was it from the builder or someone who had already purchased. You need to check the contract in respect of the transfer of kocan and it maybe possible to get a share transferred but thats something for a solicitor to arrange and if its not been then need to check as you know that whilst the kocan is in builers name then youre at risk of memorandums being placed on assets.



I dont know if this new legislation is just for future purchases which is what I have asked Elko

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 21:38

Hi honestie,



No ours was a new build bought direct from the developer. We will contact our lawyer when we are next in the TRNC and see what she says about this. As I have already stated, the new law does not go far enough to protect the buyer, as nowhere does it state that the builder MUST transfer the deeds to the buyer.



The butlers wife

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 22:00

all I will say is you really must keep on at your solicitor and check the contract and that there also no mwmorandum on the builders assets.



tou also need to check that you can get a transfer of at least a parcel of the land and at least a part is in your name. good luck

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
22/07/2010 22:21

msg. 14

Honestie,

My view is that "Registration" should protect against memorandums but it is largely a matter of interpretation which needs a good argument in court and has to be taken to the High court as well if necessarry.

Registration stops the owner of title deeds from selling it or mortgaging it to others. Here I would forcefully argue the parallel with the registration mentioned in "The Specific Performance" law. There, even if the ownershipof property is passed by mistake to someone else, it is cancelled and the registered person gets the ownership. So one has to look at the underlying aim of the law and interpret it accordingly. This matter has yet to be tested fully in court.

According to the new law it will be possible for the buyer to have the title deeds right from the beginning and will have the option to mortgage it in order to raise the necessarry capital. So it can only be the subject of a memorandum only if the buyer has unpaid debts.

ismet

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 10:56

Thanks Ismet



Re your view registration should protect against memorandums ,is as you say a matter of interpretation and something that I may well be doing and am aware it may have to go to the high court. Is the interpretation down to one judge or several at high court?



Also if registration stops the owner (by that I presume you mean kocan holder usually the builder) from selling the property and the kocan holder then does sell a property or part of land thats registered with the land registry is he subject to legal proceedings either criminal or civil.



I hadnt realised that the registration gave that protection or is that just an interpretation of the law. It will be interesting to find out the answer as it will certainly be an avenue I will pursue

Many thanks for your advice Ismet it certainly helps when I am in negotiatons with the various parties



honestie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 12:58

Honestie,

Please see http://www.mahkemeler.net/ifasil/Cap232.pdf for the original English Version of Sale of Land (Specific Performance) Law and make the parallel yourself.

If you make a Sale Agreement for a flat in an apartment or a villa from a site, you give full details to the Land Registry Office when Registering it. Hence the "owner" is not supposed to be able sell the same "property" to anyone else or mortgage it without your permission. If somehow he manages to mortgage it, such a mortgage should be considered null and void but probably it will require a court order. If the owner actually sells the same property to someone else without registration, it should be the subject of criminal proceedings but don't be surprised if the police tell the second buyer that it is a civil matter. They are usually interested in petty thieves and anything else is too complicated for them. The first buyer should not be affected adversely

ismet

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 13:14

again Ismet many thanks and will look at the site you have given me.



If it gets to the stage of what should be subject of criminal proceedings I may have to get your advise as to who will take it seriously within the police.



once again many thanks

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 14:24

ismet



I have just read the sale of land specific performance and it certainly seems to protect the purchaser once contract is registered and if thats the case are the courts or should I say judges making the same parellel as we are.



Interesting reading and one question that comes to mind is that if all monies have been paid ,there are no incumberances on the land and an order is obtained from the courts for the vendor to transfer. If the vendor refuses to transfer surely at that stage it certainly becomes a criminal offence as he has obtained your money youre living in it and he refuses to transfer. He wont refund money so he is the permanently depriving you of your cash.



Have I interpereted the sale of land specific perfomance correctly

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 14:35

Hi honestie,



I agree with what you have just said, I have also just read on another thread that Estate Agents will not take your property on their books now, if you wish to sell, unless you have title deeds. As it would appear that more people are waiting for their deeds, than have actually got them. Isn't it time the government made the builders/developers hand them over as soon as ptp has been granted? What can we do to put pressure on them to do this?



The butlers wife

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 14:46

Several years ago it was not possible to transfer shares. It is reasonable to assume that those involved in the construction industry lobbied, i.e bullied the government into amending the legislation. Parcelation must be done before construction commences or after completion of the house/site. Because this process takes so long not many developers will do the work beforehand. Understandably, they want to start immediately because of rising labour and material costs.



The lengthy delays are also the reason why the government has never taken out a full page advert in the Cyprus today warning property purchasers that they must not enter into a contract of sale until their permission is granted. Who would wait that long?



In order to make an application for parcelation, Final Approval must first be obtained and this is the stumbling block for many sites, i.e. half finished projects, no electric, water, pavements etc. etc.



con't

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 14:50

Cont'd



Having obtained Final Approval, there may still be problems with the parcelation, e.g. encroaching on a neighbour's property. All boundary issues must be dealt with and this can be problematic and very difficult to resolve.



Finally, the simple task of writing out new title deeds. Why is it taking over 12 months for new deeds to be issued?? The whole system needs a complete overhaul.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 15:27

I totally agree but as I said earlier you need to speak to your solicitor to check your contract and see if at least you get transfer of a portion of the land . You also need as I think was mentioned on another thread that you or your solicitor has the building permit and you can make the necessary enquiries at the distric office re finalisation being submitted by the builder. If not you need to find out a fer more thins which your soloictor or the HBPG will advise you on.



Difficult if you are not here but you really need these answers from your solicitor and think of legal action.



As you know there has been new legislation passed but dont think it will help the ones who have already purchased. If you read the site that Ismet has given message 19 there is protection for purchasers depending on how interpreted but nevertheless its there and you should ask your solicitor the relevent questions and get the correct reply .



If theres anything I can helpyou with I will do my best as

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 15:28

like many I have had to find my way round this minefield and nearly getting blown up!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 18:28

msg 21

Honestie,

You wrote:" Interesting reading and one question that comes to mind is that if all monies have been paid ,there are no incumberances on the land and an order is obtained from the courts for the vendor to transfer". You better read paragraph 2(d) again!!!

Accıording to 2(d), you can ask for specific performance i.e. you can ask for the title deeds only if you start court proceedings within two months of the contract. This is another thorny problem. My argument is that this law is not applicable as far as those properties where the transfer of title deeds were not available for transfer at the time of the contract. You will have to argue in court till the cows come home

Even with the new law where the title deeds will be ready from the start, the requirement for PTP makes the situation ackward.



ismet

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 18:50

Ismet



I was just going to ask you that question after rereading and rereading.It seems a no win situation really doesnt it as its impossible to start the court proceedings within the two months as we all know. Does it also mean technically we can only take any legal action ie breach of contract if is started two months.



If so then I dont know why Im paying for legal proceedings when its impossible from the beginning!



sorry to ask for the advise as it is so confusing even when Intelligent which is what I thought I was at one time



jackie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 18:59

Oh Jackie, if only our people who make these laws were half as intelligent as you



According to the SP Law, after the critical two months you can sue only for compensation. Again, I stress that my argument about the validity of this law in most cases has not been tested. Almost all lawyers and judges seem to take the view that the law is clear and the two months is critical. I beg to differ. The only trouble is that I am not a lawyer and therefore I have no license to represent anybody in court except myself as an individual and I have no such case in the pipe. Perhaps you would like to assign your contract to me and then I put a fight over it and when I get the title deeds, you try to catch me next

ismet

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 19:17

thanks Ismet

I think my solicitor maybe testing it and on another note is it possible to represent yourself here or would I be entering a complete dark hole.



At the moment I think I keep testing my solicitor as I certainly think things have to be challenged otherwise women would never have got the vote and please dont say we never should have!



If there is anything else you can point me to legislation wise it would be most appreciated



Jackie

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/07/2010 20:38

The good times are over. The reputation of Cyprus has been tarnished so badly that it is unlikely to recover. Self inflicted I might add.



http://www.propertycommunity.com/property-in-cyprus/635-illegal-property-cyprus-demolished.html



http://www.propertycommunity.com/property-in-cyprus/559-overseas-buyers-shun-cyprus-property-markets.html

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 01:57

Jackie,

Yes you can represent yourself and I often do this myself but you have to know the rules and specially know what to write in the pleadings which will bind you very strictly until the case ends. Also you have to know exactly how to introduce evidence and how to cross examine the other side or make objections just in time. So unless you know exactly wht you are doing, I will not recommend such a course.



Please see http://www.mahkemeler.net/ifasil/Cap149.pdf for the Contract Law and read paragraph 76 with special attention to 76(2).

ismet

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 17:24

thanks Ismet will keep with the solicito.r would have had a go in UK but not here wiill have a read of the links



jackie

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 17:36

Ismet, do you have a copy of the apartment law and if you do would it be possible to put a copy on here, I thought if anyone would have access to this it would be you.



Regards



Cooper

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 19:20

Cooper, here it is in Turkish http://www.mahkemeler.net/birlestirilmis/63-1987.doc

ismet

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
24/07/2010 20:27

Thank you ismet, that is very good of you.



Does anyone have the above in English or is able to translate please.



Regards



Cooper