The border closing ??????

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 01:57

If as expected the Cyprob talks fail , do you think they will close the green line crossings..???

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 06:58

is that your biggest concern if the talks fail?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 07:13

So what are your concerns if the talks fail Mustafa?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 07:18

Well mine are that Cyprus becomes another Turkish state.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 07:33

That will never happen Hippo.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 07:36

I mean officially...







unfortunately it has already happened unofficially....













there are less Turkish Cypriots in north Cyprus than there was when Turkey saved us in 1974!!!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 07:55

I doubt it as many TC's work on the other side and I believe that there would be significant resistance by the local (TC) population who cross regularly to use services not available to them on this side.



It would also leave those living this side at the 'mercy' of businesses who, with no competition could literally charge what they like.



Personally, if it was to happen, then I would be out of here like a shot.



Just my opinion of course.



Paul

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 09:15

surely if the crossing points of the green line were to close

that would be because of some change in the status quo?



I can see that it is possible in theory for the talks to succeed

even now although there are very many definitions of success!



a far more significant question is would an agreement "hold":

...ismet is very doubtful of that, given the past history



to me the talks were always unlikely to make a difference

since the firm positions of both sides are so contradictory

therefore you would think we'd be no better or worse off

if as looks very likely, they fail to resolve any issues



it would hardly be to the benefit of greek cyprus to close off

a north they still contend is their country and finalise the split



as one door closes another opens:

with the recent failiure of the "properties" campaign the gc regime

may soon have to contend with a north open to eu trade and flights



tell me paul why would you leave the trnc if the crossings closed?



andre

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 09:33

Without recognition as a state the TC's are just a community - anyone know the EU law on political conflict within an EU state? Turkey will have no say as they are outside the EU. The GC's will act first, through control of the central government, and argue about it afterwards. Do I smell a second Akritas plan?

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 09:48

Andre



Quite simply, I enjoy the freedom of being able to go to the other side and enjoy a different facet of the Cyprus experience. I have no axe to grind with either side and having lived in the South for a couple of years have good friends both there and here. I also use the South to regularly fly back to the UK.



I am afraid that being 'stuck' on this side would drive me stir crazy, my wife would probably divorce me and as mentioned in my previous post, I fear that with the lack of competition from the South, businesses this side would seize on the opportunity that a monopoly offers and prices would only go one way.



Paul

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:13

Closing the border would be a massive backward step,

Paul.

john_good


Joined: 15/08/2010
Posts: 176

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:17

As there is no border it can not be closed.

onlyme


Joined: 28/01/2008
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:17

i believe that after watching a documentary on turkish tv that said that the biggest drain on the turkish economy during this reccesion is nortern cyprus ,one wanders if some kind of deal will be reached to allow turkey to rid itself of this financial burden ,i know many people will say that this will never happen however this was also the thoughts of the population in east germany not many years ago when russia could no longer sustain its own people .the mind boggles with the thought

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:29

John,

Whats that place called that i managed to get searched at called then,

Paul.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:33

Turkey will not be dictated to to leave TRNC by ANYONE - they'll leave in their own good time.



Their TRNC 'contribution' is a 'p1ss in the bucket' compared to their GDP and resulting tax take.



However, it must still be slightly irritating for them to be aware how their 'gratis' funds are being perennially squandered.



Border, or crossing - call it what you will, will be open, or closed, according to prevailing political expedience - as it was at the recent TRNC celebrations, when GC students were playing silly-beggars.

StGeorgeI


Joined: 27/08/2009
Posts: 973

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 10:42

Lived with the border closed for Many years before the referendum. Since the 'Novelty' of going over when it first opened - I must say that I have been over once in the last 2 years I think. Would make no difference to me whatsoever if they closed the border tomorrow!



However I agree with Newlad Msg 11: Closing the border would be a huge step backwards for both sides!



G

john_good


Joined: 15/08/2010
Posts: 176

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 11:00

newlad its called un green line crossing point clearly sign posted to say so, hence greeline regulations on the transfer of goods either way as opposed to international border allowances.

oceana


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 395

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 11:10

I also agree with Newlad and Iceman. "there are less Turkish Cypriots in north Cyprus than there was when Turkey saved us in 1974" and that "closing the borders will be a step backwards for both sides". My concerns are also that N.cyprus will remain as a Turkish State and if it carries on we will no longer see any Turkish Cypriots on the island. In my opinion that is what is happening.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 11:15

Tenakatou



Agree your point re Turkey's financial contribution to TRNC. But as you say, when they are contributing over 700 million dollars per year and the casinos here pay taxes of over 450 million dollars per year to the government - where does all this money go ??? Over a billion dollars a year to run a state the size of a small county in the UK, the mind boggles. Speaking recently to a couple of Turkish mainlanders who have bought a home here, they stated that the people of Turkey, who on average earn a third of what their TC equivalents earn here, are getting a little fed up with the perception of seeing their taxes being squandered by the TRNC.



If their is no reunification, then probably the best solution is for the Motherland to take over the TRNC lock, stock and barrel. Bring in their own politicians and then maybe, just maybe, the TRNC will have a viable chance of prospering. Under the current nepotistic regime, I think that they are doomed to failure.



Paul

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 16:46

Thanks John re-mess 17.So its not a border its more of a squiggly line thingymabob then,

Paul.

john_good


Joined: 15/08/2010
Posts: 176

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 16:54

tamam newlad

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 16:57

'its called un green line crossing point clearly sign posted to say so, hence greeline regulations on the transfer of goods either way as opposed to international border allowances.'



It may be called the 'UN green line' but guess who controls it? Answers on a postcard please.

AJ

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 16:59

Is it you A.J.

Paul.

keithr


Joined: 20/08/2008
Posts: 720

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 17:58

Probably wouldn't get here ....

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 18:12

As it was Turkey who opened the borders I don't think that is a problem. Also the EU classes all of Cyprus as part of the EU but does not recognise the TRNC government. However, if as expected Turkey applies and gets EU entry (which is being supported by David Cameron) then it will all be immaterial!!!!!!

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 18:16

It may be called the 'UN green line' but guess who controls it?





Turkish army controls it......who did you think?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 21:00

there are a couple of people on here saying that ,there are less tc,s in cyprus now then there was in 74 when

turkey saved us .



the tc,s were leaving in their droves years before turkey,been forced out by the gc,s ,let,s make NO MISTAKES

had turkey not intervened ,i doubt there would be any tc ,one way or another we would certainly diminish.



musin





long live the kktc

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 21:04

Money, Money, Money, it's a rich man's world

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 21:11

Water pipeline from Turkey!



Is there any other show in town?



wyn

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 21:42

Musin

If the TC were forced out by GC's before 1974...



why the hell have their "numbers" reduced after being "saved" by Turkey in 1974?



There was no GC's to drive them out of Cyprus "in their droves"

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 21:46

People (Human Beings) dies on both sides as a direct results of the actions of the supposed 'intellects'



Fixate on money, everything else is a smoke screen!

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 22:11

foreign legion anyone!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 22:13

I hate to think what price the air fares to Ercan would be if the border/green line/crossing closed. Look what happened when CTA went bust, the other airlines took full advantage.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 22:32

Mustafa



'Turkish army controls it......who did you think?'



You must know me by now, the reason I asked the question is that I like to make people aware of the 'Green Line' situation and unfortunately most posters on this board, rightly or wrong regard the UN as the controlling authority for the Green Line/Buffer Zone. The fact is that the UN bring nothing to the keeping of peace on this island and the sooner they are gone the better.

AJ

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 22:55

mustafa



why do you think ,you seem like an intellegent man ,why did we leave in the 50s and 60s ,we were not forced by turkey ,what future have our youngsters got ,i say embargo the south in the same way the north is ,why not ,let,s even the playing field and watch the tc,s return.





musin



long live the kktc

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:03

again, I reckon I'm the odd man out



firstly neither side has any interest in closing the crossing points

even if there is no "agreement"... ie the status quo continues



secondly all the talk of a turkish state ignores the turkification of

the north cyprus protectorate since 1974:



this is happening partly due to the relative opportunities in the trnc

even compared to the poorest parts of anatolia

but also due to the isolation and oppression engineered by north

cyprus' "negociating partner",

...almost pushing them into the arms of turkey as it were



this is a fact of life and most unlikely to change, who is surprised?



andre

Stonehousepub


Joined: 21/05/2009
Posts: 755

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:04

IF TALKS FAIL (WHICH IM ALMOST SURE THEY WILL) then the borders should close. Opening the borders was one of the biggest mistakes ever made....

oceana


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 395

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:17

Why was it a misake?

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:23

Closing the border would iniate a huge problem. The education system in the north has ensured that NO TRNC citizens are truly qualified to run what is now a 'new' country. Most intelligent 'graduates' disappear to the UK or Turkey and we are left with a dwindling population of young 'business management' or 'tourism' specialists. Far below the grade of other equivalents in Europe. Show me a local engineering degree of EU standard or a local scientific degree that can match even the newest UK universities. You'll be hard pressed I'm sure. Closing the border will ensure that the TRNC remains an academic and economically stagnant outpost of Europe.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:43

I don't want to tempt fate but if the direct trade regulation is approved

this time around,

whatever edicts and pronouncements there may have been in the past

north cyprus will experience a modest boom and begin acquire some

international respectability for sure



the talks and the crossing point conundrum are really quite irrelevant



andre

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:44

sorry - typo in 'Initiate'

Stonehousepub


Joined: 21/05/2009
Posts: 755

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 23:55

The opening of the borders has not been of any benefit for the TRNC... The economy Of the TRNC has suffered the most as so many people from the north are spending in the south.



The island is at the end of the day divided so why have crossing borders ? They serve no real purpose other than convenience, which may TC's seemed to do without for many years.



Now can someone give me a viable reason as to why the crossing borders need to be open ?

oceana


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 395

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:03

The North and South should negotiate in order for some problems to be solved in the country. For years Turkey has always had power over North and nothing positive is happening so it's about time I think for the the island to re-unite.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:10

the reason you have more mainland Turkish is because turkey say so, the have dictated 2 thirds Turks one third Cypriots, it seems to be the way forward x

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:15

Mustafa



'why the hell have their "numbers" reduced after being "saved" by Turkey in 1974?'



Do you know how many exiled Cypriot Turks are coming back to the TRNC?



Oh and by the way you of course know that they are Cypriot Turks and not Turkish Cypriots?

AJ

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:29

Back to msg. 1.

I notice that the person who started this thread doesn't live here, but in London per his profile.

So Msg. 2

Mustafa, the orginator of this thread is probably more concerned with flights into & out of Larnaca, than a solution to the Cyprus problem.

As a resident, I could not give a toss anymore about the possibilty of the borders crossings closing.

So my few trips South would be curtailed. So what, I managed in the past when I lived here before the borders opened & I will manage again.

There was life here before the South was accessible!!!

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:49

scruff , first assumption I am a male , second assumption I do not live here , where is my location stated ,why london ???? If the residents (YOU) don't "give a toss" why is the ryan air thread so popular , why is the how much from laranca so popular ????????

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 00:53

assume making an ass out of you and............

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 01:03

Well ................you have changed your location from 'London' to 'Assume', since I posted, haven't you.

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 01:08

is that another assumption ?????

scruff


Joined: 15/07/2008
Posts: 1070

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 01:11

No it's a fact.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 07:52

I'm with "Stonehousepup" and "scruff" on this subject even though alot of us (TCs) have also left the island after 1974 to seek a better future due to one reason or another.In 23 years abroad I never entered the island from south and never will.

As for Turks vs Us;we are around quarter at the moment and I'd put most of the blame on my own brothers&sisters for keep bringing them over for cheap labour rather then Turkey.

The good thing at the moment is government plans for good CLEAR OUT.



As for the so called BORDERS.........WE should close them as a respect to ourselves.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 08:36

Yorgo



Closing the 'border' would put an awful lot of your countrymen out of work. I cross to the other side on a regular basis and in the mornings and late afternoon, Metehan is packed with TC's going to and coming back from work. Without these job opportunities the government would have to find even more non-existent jobs for TC's and then fail to pay them on time



All too often I see the embargoe blamed as the reason for all of the TRNC's problems but I think it is time that the government started looking inward rather than blaming all and sundry (except themselves) for the state of the country. CTA is a prime example, as a private company it was profitable until the state took it over, unqualified people (friends and relatives) were given high ranking positions and lo and behold the company a few years later goes bust owing millions of dollars.



continued.....

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 08:42

Good governance is about doing what is best for the country even if at the time it proves unpopular - it is not about keeping people 'sweet' in the hope that it will guarantee that you will be re-elected.



Unfortunately, successive governments have chosen the latter option, creating non-existent jobs that the country cannot pay for and allowing the unions to dominate every facet of employment policy.



The country cannot continue the way that it is, difficult decisions need to be made but as we are all patently aware, the government is incapable of making any form of meaningful decision and even if they do, they never see it through.



Just my opinion of course.



Paul

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 09:51

re msg 1



where you SERIOUS when you raised this topic ! ?



1/ there IS no 'border' ... EVERYONE outside of TR / 'TRNC' knows this



2/ Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe and subject to its European Court of Human rights rulings - it was a TC Doctor - wishing to cross to liaise with fellow Cypriots that took Turkey to court and won the right to cross... hence the gates opening in 2003



3/ Since that date many TCs work/ shop/ or simply visit the 'south'



The 'experiment' to hermetically seal off the 'north' was failed policy .. IF it were introduced you would see a lot of TCs 'object'... any one remember 'This Country is Ours' in 2003 ?

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 10:15

The failure of the unification talks would precipitate many things. But closing the border crossings is not on anyone's agenda that I've heard. To do so would achieve nothing in anyone's interest.



The border may have other weasel tags like "green line" but if it looks like a border, feels like a border and you have to show your passport.....IT IS A BORDER. No matter what the UN/EC/US think.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 10:25

I dare say you can shout 'it's a border' as loud as you like.. folk have been 'shouting' it since 1983



.. to BE a border it has to be an internationally recognised frontier- rather than simply being the first place that EU immigration / customs can be effected....

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 12:04

There will never be a reunification !! The GC's don't want it, Turkey don't want it and the TC's don't want it either so whats all the dribble about? Does anyone realistically think there can be a reunion? I don't think so !!!

Variety are the decorations of life. So we should be happy to have a choice between the south and the north in my opinion.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 12:22

WHO is talking about re-unification... ?!!



the ONLY deal on the table is a bi-zoanl, bi-communal, Federal solution ( sssHH - don't mention Annan ! )

oceana


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 395

Message Posted:
19/08/2010 13:46

I don't believe there will be re-unification either because neither sides want it! Besides without Turkey saying so our goverment is incapable of making any decisions alone. We have leaders but we all can witness that there is nothing much they are doing. They are just called leaders and are leaded by Turkey!



But re-unification is the only solution I see and I agree with Friendspaul that the country cannot continue the way it is!!

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 10:30

This country can continue this way and it will !!!!, All that will happen is that the rich will get richer the poor will get poorer and the middle class will just plod on relentlessly lol.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 10:36

Cyprusman



I don't believe that the Motherland will allow the country to continue this way. The past 12 months has seen Turkey being much more open about the direction in which it wishes to see the TRNC go. They hold the purse strings and will ultimately dictate what happens and when, without Turkey the TRNC would be financially bankrupt. It could be deemed morally bankrupt already !!



Paul

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 10:53

its time the GCs were put in the place and told by the UN and the EU , stop being so unhelpfull and toe the line, or through them out of the EU and replace them with Turkey problem solved. The South becomes TRNC two and they all live happy ever after.

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 12:41

message 62



What you fail to realise is that turkey will always keep NC in this position so they can keep it under total control, there will never be abundance here unless you create it yourself by acting out side of the system, which is what i do. Believe me when i say these are the good days, and they will never end, The big mainland companies are pumping in hotels and stuff coz they will control it all and in a way maybe thats a good thing, as long as you have the initiative to work round it then theres no problem

Garythegeezer


Joined: 05/02/2007
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 13:01

God knows how many MMmmmmm's



the ONLY deal on the table is a bi-zoanl, bi-communal, Federal solution ( sssHH - don't mention Annan ! )



What does this actually mean in terms of day to day life in the North? How would it work, who's in charge of what etc. For instance, would you be able to receive medical treatment in the South. Honestly interested in the dynamics of life in such a country.



Thanks

Gary

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 14:32

Gary, the Annan plan was a UN sponsored plan for a solution to the CY prob.



IF Cypriots had agreed to it, ALL of CY would be covered by the EU.. no work permits, residency permits, etc.,



Sadly the GCs voted against it - as recommended by their President - who LIED to his electorate - claiming he would get them a 'better' soln...

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 15:07

message 56:



how do you know that the "failiure" of the much-hyped reunification talks

would precipitate many things? I think we should be told what they are



it could simply be a continuation of the present and static situation,

although it is said that with the sides unable to agree any practicalities

after years of flannel, turkey is now beginning to look at exit strategies



but you must accept that mark 6xm is quite correct about the green line:

according to all international legal definitions it is nothing but an internal

ceasefire line...nothing more nor less



even if it appears to the naiive casual observer

to have many attributes of an international and unfriendly border

though as the man said "if it looks and walks like an elephant...etc"



perhaps it will be a recognized international border in 100 years' time



andre

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 15:18

Hi sixems,



I'm not sure why you need to claim so strongly that "there IS no border", nor what your point is other than to be argumentative.



Whether you call it a border, a barrier or simply a place containing uniformed people who will not allow you to proceed unless you comply with their requests seems a bit immaterial to me. All I know for sure is that there is a line across this island that my wife, having entered from Turkey, was not allowed by GC "border" guards to cross.



By the way, I'm sad to say that I didn't notice anyone on the Siberian stations a couple of weeks ago holding a sign saying "hi rottolover"...

oceana


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 395

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 15:40

We do realise that Turkey will always try to keep NC in this position so that they can keep it under total control as you have said so Cyprusman3 "rich will get richer the poor will get poorer". But this is not the way a country should continue! Turkey is using North Cyprus in most cases for it's own needs! Turkey is dictating NC, so what is the point in having leaders in NC if they do not have the power to make decisions alone or act upon their own thoughts!!! I just hope that Turkey will be out of the picture which I believe that they will not be unless there is peace in the country, that's when Turkey will back out! I'm not denying the fact that Turkey has come to rescue us in 1974 but we are now in 2010 and the situation of the country is going no where good so serious steps need to be taken in the country.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 21:48

mark message 59:



you state there is a deal "on the table" but on which table is that?



and seem to hint this supposed deal is related to the ("sssHH") 2004 annan plan,

which the greek cypriots angrily binned!

while christofias confirmed when the talks began back in 2008 "annan is dead"



additionaly I see no mention since of handing territory to greek cyprus annan-style,

while the UBP would hardly reward the enemies of north cyprus with guzelyurt and varosha



but you could make a case that two particular notions have achieved consensus:

federation not confederation, and the rotating presidency



however talat's acceptance of federation is rejected by the current north cyprus leader,

and cristofias' coalition partners have been making angry noises about a rotating presidency



as a firm believer in what is you decide helps the cypriots, the whole sorry business

must all be very frustrating for you, especially now with barely four months' talking still to do



andre

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
20/08/2010 23:44

garythegeezer msg 65,



yes the two sides have been talking with un encouragement since 2008,

but finally admit to "very serious differences" over property



unfortunately for greek cyprus, any deal they might be offered in 2010

would be worse than the one they fatally rejected in 2004, see msg 70



however the situation is far simpler than that:

christofias went on local tv in the spring to re-affirm he totally rejected

any idea of compromise... which to me at least sounds like "no deals"



but perhaps mark would explain in detail for you what annan 2004

could have meant in practical terms

he knows more than me about this since he campaigned

for a "yes" vote in the greek-cypriot territories



ask him whether it would have worked without finally collapsing:

some cynical folk believe it couldn't have, given cyprus' modern history



isn't it unrealistic to fret about "what might have been"?

and don't bellieve his "everyone knows" business...they really don't



andre

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
21/08/2010 02:14

the problem is no "leader" will want to be responsible for the failing of the talks,, esp in the eyes of the eu,, I expect they will continue for................

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
21/08/2010 11:32

Cyprusman



Re message 64



If these are the good days then god/allah help us all.



Paul

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 11:02

re 68 R L

>> not sure why you need to claim so strongly that "there IS no border", nor what your point is other than to be argumentative. <<



Not 'claiming' anything.. FACT.. *I* don't understand why European Citizens whose govts support the UN Charters 'argue' !! ;)



>>Whether you call it a border, a barrier or simply a place containing uniformed people who will not allow you to proceed unless you comply with their requests seems a bit immaterial to me. All I know for sure is that there is a line across this island that my wife, having entered from Turkey, was not allowed by GC "border" guards to cross. <<

Because it is the first place that EU rules on Immigration / customs can be upheld.. a 'border' it ain't ..



>>By the way, I'm sad to say that I didn't notice anyone on the Siberian stations a couple of weeks ago holding a sign saying "hi rottolover"...<<



You didn't post which train number or the time - I had a welcoming committee lined up ! How was the trip ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 11:09

re 70



andre: of course i'm saddened by the lack of progress and lost opportunities - let's be honest... the will to negotiate the deal on the table may not be present on one or both sides ..



What would the passing of the UN deadline bring? A lot depends on how the UN perceives who were the deal-breakers..

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 11:43

msg 73 friendishpaul , i know what u mean but in 3 years we can remind each other of this post !!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 11:50

mmmmmmmmm,



re 75,



It will depend on who is perceived as being the one that walks away.



Care to speculate on the outcomes, either way?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 12:07

Hi 'TRNC'



Like I said -if there is no progress - a lot will depend on the wording of a report from the UN ..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 21:36

mark message 75



fair comment but with some minor qualifiers:



firstly the un of course may apportion "blame" in any report:

however despite their many encouraging statements since 2008

there is no consensus to to unify the island of cyprus in view,

nor on what mainly concerns the north, reliable security guarantees

...so at least they cannot pretend to be "surprised"



and far from punishment for the north if perceived as the guilty party,

it has at least a sporting chance of getting the eu blocade lifted early in 2011

as you will know



secondly, it still seems to me there is still far too much being read into this process

which started with the two sides diametrically opposed and is ending much the same



finally, I must be too thick to understand how a deal roundly rejected in six years ago

and arguably outmoded by subsequent events eg election of the hardline ubp,

is still bobbing about in your mind if nowhere else, perhaps you can "explain"?



andre

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 22:15

Sorry, sixems, but I can't for the life of me believe that anything, let alone a lot, will depend on the wording of any report from the UN. I remain firmly convinced that the effectiveness, standing and credibility of the UN is as weak in Cyprus now as it was prior to 1974....they are awesomely similar to any other bunch of self-important international administrators who believe they are crucial to the resolution of the problem.



The trip was fascinating, especially the journey round the southern edge of Lake Baikal...that has surely to be one of the world's natural wonders.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 23:24

My view is that the "border" green line is not the real issue of importance. There is clearinternational pressure to resolve the Cyprus problem. After the failure of Anan the North moved into a position of strength and this card remains on the table. The UN, EU ad certainly USA, want and need the Isand to become stable, settled and a unilateral ally.

If talks fail the I think the UN will get very much more involved to force a settlement, possibly along the lines of what mmmmm suggests.

Failure of talks will certainly not be the end of the settlement process. It will mean a lesser dependance on a Cypriot solution for the Cyprus problem. It becomes increasingly clear that the Island populus and government simply do ot have the capacity to resolve key issues such as property and governance.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 23:38

yes waz I agree with your last line about the importance of property and governance

...except that the turkish/cypriots would put security and guarantee at the top of "their" list



while having rejected any compromise or so it seems to me the gc community

hanker for a return to north cyprus and I understand this admittedlyfar-fetched ambition



why would the un want to get involved in fisticuffs on the ground if no member will pay?

while america and the eu are in growing thrall of rising turkey?



I think the situation as of now is quite stable and foreign intervention would be a disaster

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
22/08/2010 23:53

I've got a feeling that the Falkland Islands will be Argentinian before the TRNC becomes part of a Greek Cypriot dominated Cyprus.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 02:14

lemtich,



history teaches that the powerful but complacent can be caught off guard

eg pearl harbour 1941, hitler's attack on russia 1941, france in 1940

and more recently the october war 1973, saddam's invasion of kuwait, and countless examples



but the chances of greek cyprus clawing back the north by force are extremely remote,

and neither the isolations nor talks and more talks are achieving this sort of "progress"

while the eu usa and russia for example are committed to turkey economically/politically

would not do it for them even using the fig leaf of a "un" operation, which could fail anyway!



yet the nonsence of a one-size-fits-all "solution" is described in hushed tones on our little forum:

the naiive idea that both communities' needs can be appeased in one go: one wonders why?



we already "heard" from greek cyprus in a 76% "no" to compromise vote six years ago

so I find myself in agreement with mark x6m that concessions could only ever come from turkey

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 02:29

The main problem is the "powers" talking do not care ,they have their big houses and flash cars ..these meetings for them is just doing their job , neither leader really cares as long as he has a well paid , fly around the world, get fed, get families jobs, and go in to the history books as a leader/ president etc..

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 07:53

Andre



"but the chances of greek cyprus clawing back the north by force are extremely remote"



I would say the chances are non-existent. For a start, it would be political as well as military suicide for the RoC to try and cross the 'border' and take the North by force. They are, after all a member of the EU and any form of aggression would be met with scorn from other EU members. Militarily, the GC National Guard is a largely ineffectual force with fairly antiquated weaponry. The North could easily take the moral high ground and reduce force levels this side to something similar in the South (approx 10000) after all, basic military planning usually works on the assumption that an attacking force needs to be 4 times as strong as the defender if an attack is to be a 'guaranteed' success. In the event of 'crisis', the North could be easily reinforced from the mainland in a matter of hours/days.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 10:23

agree paul but remember that they are unlikely to register any "progress" using peaceful means

ie the collapse of the "properties" onslaught, threat of direct trade and the russia/turkey tie-up:

obviously a few T90 tanks is not going to swing it but perhaps they hope for a divided, confused

situation doing most of the job for them, the silly billies, well they can dream if nothing else



If I was them and wanted to go where they want to, I wouldn't start from this place in any event



as regards the original poser, about the green or attila line "closing",

I feel certain it is in everyone's interest to keep this figleaf to good relations open for our lifetimes



andre

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 10:35

Andre



I couldn't agree more



However, I do believe that the North could score a number of positive political points by reducing troop levels with zero risk to the security of the country. Whilst appreciating that this could be deemed as 'caving in' to one of the demands of the RoC, it would demonstrate to the wider world that the North is willing to make serious compromises in the search for a peaceful solution whilst placing the RoC on the 'backfoot'.



Just my opinion of course



Paul



Paul

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 10:40

As a slight aside............reducing troop numbers would hopefully reduce the number of army camps and therefore make refusing PTP on the basis of proximity to military establishments more of a rarity. We can all dream I suppose



Paul

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 11:31

Can we calm down a little here please. My GC cousins have never closed the border and never will. Especially now that there in the EU. TRNC may close the border but they will have 60000 TC outside old yero Muhtaro's house like last time.



If the crossings are closed, there will be thousands of TCs out of a job. Admittedly they getting a second class citizen treatment in the southern lands but it is prefered to unemployment.



TCs will always have the choice to just move south and the southern government will have to house them and feed them and pay them money like a good little EU country that they are.



In fact I am thinking of packing it in here in Jondon and just doing that with my 4 wives and 18 kids. Can one of my GC cousins tell us how much child benefit does the lovely "roc" pay to her citizens and unemployment money, as well as which hotels do they put their homeless families in, I hope it will be near some beach.



I am very particular where I stay.



Thanks

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 11:34

Has anybody here actually got PTB a pre-74 TC property that is not a TC. From what I have read on this forum there seems to be a policy of only selling GC properties to non-TCs.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 11:39

YFred



I believe that some who bought pre-74 properties prior to 2006 got PTP. It would appear from recent posts that anyone buying after 2006 has been refused PTP.



This is just what I have gleaned from posts on the Forum and in no way claim that it is a fact.



Paul

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/08/2010 15:19

agree with the thrust of what andre is saying.



Are a large majority of GC's convinced that they should be reinstated as the king of the throne. In other words, as the majority on the island, they see it as their natural right to control the whole island and to have all their lands back?



If this is a yes, that they have a strong conviction, then where do they go if the talks fail? I guess they might, once again turn to the ECJ, but this is expensive and protracted. What happens if all the doors close for them?



Frustration if experienced for a long period of time can turn in to anger. How might this anger be expressed if it is allowed to fester? How might they achieve their goals? What would their next move be?





Perhaps this sobering conclusion, that their options may have indeed run out, may be convincing many that they may indeed need to lower their expectations at the negotiating table. Christofias does not seem convinced.



ps agree that Turkey could reduce its tro

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2010 02:37

the greek cypriot majority hitched their wagon to regaining the ascendency over all the island

they are too weak to manage it in themselves and former allies have bigger fish to fry



their specific demands are not unreasonable in themselves

but the gc's having proved earlier they could not be trusted, the island's peoples are diverging



while it would be splendid for cypriots to come up with a workable agreement of some form,

...a velvet divorce would represent the best outcome for our north...

recognition of trnc allowing turkey to pull out most of its ground troops



because of huge differences a single "solution to the cyprob" is unattainable

unless big compromises are agreed at the 11th hour:



there is no prototype deal on any table in any country of the east med I am aware of

...all the hype about peace talks is meant as a message to outside powers, but on "44", naiivety



outside states would quite bonkers to get involved further, in the guise of eu, usa, un etc

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
24/08/2010 03:36

andre , quite right in the big /little scheme of things , outside of Cyprus no really gives a .....second thought..

Garythegeezer


Joined: 05/02/2007
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
24/08/2010 15:36

Mmm MSG66



Yep understand that bit, but interested in day to day life, who controls what? Who would you pay local taxes too, electric etc. I am puzzled by how this system would work and what it would mean to all the people living here.



Thanks

Gary

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
25/08/2010 01:29

if there is a solution , the whole island would have to "obey" eu regulations , and people with internal problems could then go to a higher authourity..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/08/2010 01:52

peter, there is a more far more likely likely outcome, you would not call it a solution

since all it solves is any lingering doubt about the future of the two main communities

...and that is a final parting of the ways



many worthy international bodies, famously mark 6xm, perhaps (conditionally) myself

may prescribe a rather different medicine for cypriots but everything points that way



why not try to get used to the idea?



if it was a velvet divorce ie recognition of the trnc then most turkish troops could leave



andre

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
25/08/2010 05:20

yfred

In fact I am thinking of packing it in here in Jondon and just doing that with my 4 wives and 18 kids. Can one of my GC cousins tell us how much child benefit does the lovely "roc" pay to her citizens and unemployment money, as well as which hotels do they put their homeless families in, I hope it will be near some beach.





very little i would think however if you were to go to the UK!!!!!!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
26/08/2010 08:46

garythegeezer,



nobody has tried to answer your query about life in an annan-cyprus



the island would have been an eu single state of two zones:

the fact that a handover by turkish cyprus of varosha and guzelyurt region

and that cypriots could not just go home to where they had lived in 1974,

...suggests the autonomy would have been very real on the ground



on the other hand punters in nicosia were telling reporters

that "$5000" was too small in the proposed compensation scheme



also turkey and its army would have mostly left the island in the end...

but the north would be recognised as having the right to control its area



lots of muttering from greek cypriots at the time about turkish settlers:

most could have stayed in cyprus



whether the plan would have succeeded had cypriots voted yes is anyone's guess:

ismet thinks it would have failed and turkey would come back in



cristofias argued for a no vote in '74 and rejected it again in 2008,

saying "annan is dead"

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
26/08/2010 08:54

correction:



cristofias argued for a no vote in 2004, not 1974. obviously a freudian slip!



just for interest, how do you think any unification deal would operate gary?



andre

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
27/08/2010 02:56

ignore the readers comments ......





http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-to-gain-financially-from-cyprus-pact-2010-07-22