[LOCATION] The Crow's Nest Pub in Karaman (not Karmi]

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/09/2010 18:58

Location of the Crow's Nest Pub in Karaman (for quite some time no longer known by the Greek name Karmi): http://is.gd/eWebH

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
05/09/2010 19:43

Always useful to have a map, With a bit of knowledge thrown in and its for free!

Thanks DC

ClaireCat44



Joined: 17/09/2008
Posts: 739

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 09:35

The Cypriots call it Karmi, not the Turkish name of Karaman.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:03

Claire: when I first made my map of Northern Cyprus I was instructed by the Mapping Department of the Ministry of Interior (TRNC/KKTC) to use the official names of towns and villages. From that day it's Karaman for me (like on the roadsigns) and not Karmi, although the Greek speaking Cypriots most probably disagree for obvious reasons.

The changing of names started in 1958, when Cypriot Turks gave their villages (enclaves/ghettos in hostile surroundings) Turkish names. In 1974, after the Peace Operation of the Turkish Army, all towns and villages in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus were officially given a Turkish name.

I think foreigners should respect this decision of the TRNC Government. Anyway, I do when I make a map.

ClaireCat44



Joined: 17/09/2008
Posts: 739

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:22

What you are saying is a political stand. If we are talking on official grounds then I can respect your official names of towns and villages but if we are talking on social grounds then you should respect all people who choose to use the original names of these places. It's a myth to think that just the Greek Cypriots use the name Karmi. Local Turkish Cypriots do too. However, Turkish Cypriots with a political stand choose to use the official names and I can respect that. Original names of Turkish streets and roads have been kept in the South. Place names like Vuni, Soli and Lefke are all original and have been respected over the years. To sum up mutual respect for people's choices should be first priority. ps. This message contains a lot of input from my Cypriot colleagues.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:24

By the way. Karaman is a very interesting village, which a history going back many centuries. It was first mentioned in Frankish manuscripts in 1192, but the village is probably much older. The village and the area around it once belonged to the Order of the Carmelites, hence the name Karmi (in 1880 spelled as Kármi, with a mixed Greek Orthodox and Moslim population). Near the village was a Carmelite monastery (including one of the many "holy wells" in Cyprus), but no traces are left.

jillyjugs


Joined: 21/07/2010
Posts: 80

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:27

what was the name of the village when it belonged to the Order of the Carmelites please .

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:28

well who knew?

Thanks to both of you, I am gaining some education today by just sitting back and reading an intelligent post.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:34

RE msg 5, ClaireCat44: (...) What you are saying is a political stand. (...)

=> So is yours - and nothing wrong with that! As a resident here with an interest in map making I follow instructions as explained in my message number 4. Have a nice day!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 10:54

RE msg 7, jillyjugs: (...) what was the name of the village when it belonged to the Order of the Carmelites please . (...)

=> Answer: Kármi. The members of the order mainly spoke (medieval) French (higher ranked members also spoke Latin) and that may explain the " á " in Kármi. I don't know when or why the " á " disappeared, but definitely after 1880 when Captain (later Lord) H.H. Kitchener still put the name Kármi on his famous map.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 17:14

The old village of Karaman has a Greek Orthodox church - architectural not of much interest - which is definitely worth a visit inside. If you don't have the time: watch the 360 degrees movie below. Click the link, look around and zoom in on every detail of the church. You can move the picture on your screen with your mouse (keep the mouse button pressed!).

http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/Karaman_medium.mov

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/09/2010 19:40

RE msg 11: Visit Karaman's church! Be patient - it'll take some time (large file) before you can watch the movie on your screen.

andrew4232



Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 1543

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 17:11

should we still call it a church now? or should it be museum

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 17:59

Thanks for the map Hans. Very useful for giving to builders, plumbers etc as they usually haven't a clue where we are! Any chance of a Turkish langauage version?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 21:08

RE msg 14, jimchris09: (...) Any chance of a Turkish langauage version? (...)

=> If you provide the relevant text in the Turkish language..., I'll make a "Turkish" copy of this map for you.

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 01:45

Errr....all the roads changing would be a start...OK?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 07:37

Mail me the changes or translations you want on the map to mcf.trnc@gmail.com and I'll do it for you (and others if they are also interested to have a "Turkified" map).