XL Collapses

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 05:59

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7611639.stm

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 08:31

In the present economic climate this is certainly not unexpected. I would not be surprised to see more go over the winter.



The charter companies must rethink there pricing structures and enevitably they must rise considerably.



IMO the only airlines likely to survive in the budget pricing area are the big two of easyJet and Ryanair who have targetted specific markets very succesfully. The rest will have to charge the real price rather than trying to undercut the market.

brandy sour


Joined: 09/04/2008
Posts: 310

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 08:56

I feel sorry for people turning up for their flight this morning only to be told you are going no where to day it,s so heart breaking for them it could have easy been us in this terrible situation.

KAVENKOY


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 09:31

my friend is supposed to be going to disney world florida next friday .



he and kids feel sick .



kav

Notsoboredhw


Joined: 15/03/2007
Posts: 1254

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 10:01

Someone on this forum and his wife are now stranded in Cyprus!

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 10:13

Its a tad insensitive to have that advert on the top right of this page, Izzie.



Can't you remove it?



Lem

Notsoboredhw


Joined: 15/03/2007
Posts: 1254

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 10:25

Izzet might still be in bed - let him have his cuppa first!!!

Nighmare though for all those people stranded.

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 10:26

Lem give him time - I have a similar problem and unntil our web master is back from his holidays I can do nothing.

mountbatten


Joined: 12/04/2008
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 11:19

Cyprusishome,you are right as regards Easyjet & Ryanair,one thing they are doing is cutting back on there winter flights and stopping some winter flights,so those who bought property out in the sticks knowing that a airport was close by,might now have problems

Elliecy


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 153

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 11:24

We had flights booked to come here a couple of years ago when Atlas went bust in the UK (1 week before our holiday). It took months to get the money back but we were finally refunded, although not quite the full amount. As for getting the adverts removed, I'm sure people are not unreasonable and have other things to worry about at the moment!

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 11:28

Please look at the Flights 2008 /2009 thread as I have tired to post some thoughts (hopefully helpful) for those who are stranded etc there.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 11:32

I travelled back from Cyprus on XL four days ago. I was very lucky indeed.



Hopefully those stranded around the world are repatriated asap. For those who have worked hard all year looking forward to their annual holiday it must be a nightmare being told you can't now go.

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 11:33

Elliecy,



Can I just correct you ATLAS did not go bust they are still thriving.



The people who went out of business were TWI / Jewels of the World as we well know having helped a lot of people who were in similar trouble at that time. You are right the claims can take quite a while; you do speed them up by getting all the details to the CAA as requested on their forms. The CAA/ATOL can only help in certain circumstances see their site or my posting mentioned in Msg 11.



Tom

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 12:02

Just a reminder for those who paid for their XL flights with a Visa Debit card. You do enjoy the same protection as those who pay with credit cards, the Banks don't advertise this as it obviously will cost them money.



Don't be fobbed off by local bank staff that debit card transactions aren't covered by Section 75 protection if you don't receive goods. Visa have got this protection written in and banks have to sign up to it to use the Visa logo on their Debit cards.



Lem

KAVENKOY


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 12:52

what will happen to west ham then lol



sponsored by xl and just got a new manager

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 13:05

Kavenkoy, peeling the logos off as we speak

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 13:19

Here's the link about getting a refund from the bank (chargeback) if you paid for your XL flights with a Visa debit card.



Lem



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/7347146.stm

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 13:47

Hi Lem,



A chargeback is not the same as a refund. (I have not looked at the link so do not know what Aunty Bb has said).



A chargeback goes to the retailer which can only be done if there is a dispute with that vendor.



A refund is only if the seller offers or agrees one for goodwill, legal reasons etc.



If you have paid an agent for a service if they have not paid the people supplying them they can refund you (possibly subject to reasonable costs etc.) I think the position may be different if you have paid XL direct.



In this case the refund that you assume will happen will be due to the law and does not come under either word (I'm not sure of the technical phrase). As it would be the bank that would have the responsibility not the vendor if they have paid for the services to their supplier.



Basicaly it needs more research possibly with UK Trading Standards; all this assumes that you bought the goods from the UK and for flights from the UK returning to the UK.

Chick-A-Dee


Joined: 16/06/2008
Posts: 342

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 14:12

XL today .... which airline tomorrow? Sign of the times eh?

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 14:18

My son & his friends are stranded in TBV too. I texted him this a.m.

& he didn't know (on golf course) He got details of tel. nos. on mobile

& they will have to pay for return flight with Civil Airline Authority, but

will hope to recover it later. They had a nightmare delay going out &

it did look ominous. Pity to spoil a much deserved hol. with this headache

Lindz


Joined: 10/07/2007
Posts: 11

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 15:59

Although it's an awful shame for holiday makers & travellers, at least they haven't lost their jobs. What would be worse losing (say) £400 or your livelihood? It seems staff had no idea this would happen so quickly.

Linda

HAPPY FEET


Joined: 18/07/2008
Posts: 416

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 16:07

Good riddance to an appalling airline !

Left us stranded in Barbados on the runway for 4 hours with no food or water, then delayed us for two whole days! had to go the airport twice, go through customs twice, find new accomadation twice at 1am in the morning and have the cheek to hand out £5 worth of food vouchers , If it wasn't for Richard Branson (Virgin Airlines) we would had never got home, Excel gave nobody updates or information when flight were leaving, a complete nightmare.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 16:18

Totally agree. Crap airline that used every ruse in the book to screw money out of you.



Their favourite trick was to get your initial wrong on the flight booking, then charge you £20 to correct it. By then they had your deposit so you had to pay up. Oh and a £10 fee for asking for this to be done over the phone rather than emailling.



Shoddy airline, good riddance to them.



Lem

Tatlisu4me


Joined: 26/01/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 16:33

Lem funny that was just about to contact them about my wifes wrong initial......

but never mind, we could have been stranded overseas.

Good old CTA !!

Bowman


Joined: 02/05/2007
Posts: 256

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 17:29

I hope Gianfranco Zola, isnt flying weith them from Rome when he goes to take up his new post!!!!!

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 17:44

Please take note of Tom's post 18. If you bought your tickets on your credit card via an Agent then please note that your credit card company will not settle your claim as they will state that the Agent fulfilled their obligation in booking your flights and issuing you with tickets (assuming that the agent has forwarded the funds to the company). In this instance you will need to claim via the CAA. You should be able to find the relevant forms and information on the CAA's website.



I know this to be true because when Jewels of the World collapsed in 2006 it took me months to get my money back. It took my credit card company 6 months to give me the information in paragraph 1 and return all my original paperwork and I then had to apply to the CAA. Luckily the CAA were quite quick to settle.



Tom, apologies for posting this on your sticky. At that point I hadn't read this thread.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 18:56

Hi all... Had this happen to me 5years ago.Onthe way to Florida the company Ibooked my flights and car hire bump as we were on the Plane going to Orlando.Luckily for me they had paid the airline so my return tickets were o.k.but they had not paid Alamo Car Hire so I had to pay £630 for the vehicle rental then submit evey thing to the TravelTrust Association who they had a bond with.Took 6months but I got every thing back that Ihad had to pay out.

Chuck


Joined: 05/07/2008
Posts: 30

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 20:36

I dont know if anybody else noticed but the flights with other carriers like Monarch and thomas cooke have gone up by up to 150 euros overnight. I dont know if this is related to XL going bust or not.

Also I was under the misconseption that Flights get cheaper as the flight time gets nearer.!! Wrong! with Thomas cook they get much more expensive as it gets nearer to the flight date,so beware if you are waiting to book..

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
12/09/2008 21:48

Flew with XL last time (back on 31/8/) no problems & once before.

Highly recommended by my hairdresser who couldn't speak too highly

of them! Just heard son & friends got a flight back with Pegasus, then

Easyjet to Glasgow. Costs them, but they are on duty soon so have to be back!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 12:38

hi all... watching the news this morning and acouple of things came on which should cause alarm,.They are saying there culd be up to 30 airlines going bust before xmas,and the ones left at the moment are charging outrageous prices to [people trying to get home i.e.some person was charged 800 pounds EACH for aflight from Antalya to the U.K. this would normally cost about 180 pounds each.Some companies seem to grow horns etc, in times of trouble...

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 12:54

Hi Coachie,



It does seem terrible but a one way or return ticket on a scheduled service can be on a number of different levels (the airline class sytem)and the 800 may just be the standard business class rate for that route.



Recently we had a client in trouble in Istanbul and the consolidator (who felt responsible) was charged over 760 for a one way ticket by the airline. The original return seats for a longer journey were worth about 400.



So it sounds like the ones that seem to be a rip off might unhappily just be people who have been lucky enough to get a seat but at a very high price.



I hope that they talked to their travel insurer as they might have been covered by them. If so the insurance company probably have to agree to pay before you buy.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 13:09

F.H.....There is one thing that puzzles me,why the administrater would not let the C.A.A. charter the XL aircraft,after all they would recouped some of the money and all the crew were available.Instead the C.A.A have to trawl round europe trying to charter aircraft when ther are 21 perfectly good ones sitting on the tarmac here in the UK.I not being abusiness man ask you who is,can you explain please..

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 13:19

Coachie, because the aircraft did not belong to XL, the aircraft were leased, they only owned 3 aircraft and they were diverted to Germany and Paris. The Paris one still had all passengers on board. The French and German side of XL have not gone into liquidation they were sold earlier on.



Once XL aircraft had landed in the UK they were "clamped", why should the aircraft belonging to someone else be used.



Tom is correct in saying that people have used any means of getting home and some of those seats at high prices have been business class. Unfortunately or fortunately its a free market out there for airlines and puts into perspective how cheap flights have been in the past, something you may not see in the future.



2 Airlines already spoken of to forclose soon is one in Germany and the other Alitalia. Alitalia is costing the taxpayer of Italy £1,000,000 per day and probably as soon as it goes out of business it will transform again to more cost to the Italians until they wake up.

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 14:23

I work for the citizens advive bureau and would like to clarify a couple of points. Only those people booking by credit card are legally covered for a full refund.Those who booked using their visa debit card are only covered legally for the first £100 although the banks who take part in this card as a gesture of good will at the moment are willing to honour in full the total refund of all monies,what everbody should be aware of when using this type of card in the future is that the banks are NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED TO GIVE YOUR MONEY BACK and may very well change their policy.Those who used other cards like maestro should approach their bank or provider and if even told NO should always complain to a higher authority pointing out what a good customer they have been, in many cases if you complain long and hard enough you will get a full refund as a one off gesture of good will.Lastly always check your paper work at the bottom of your booking confirmation you will sometimes find an ATOL number even if you booked on line. I ALWAYS USE A CREDIT CARD FOR LARGE PURCHASES.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 14:36

dalartokat..Iam aware that 18 of the aircraft were leased(not many alines buy nowadays) that is why I thought it abit strange that the administrator did not allow the C,A.A. to contact the leasing company to take over the lease for a limited period.Surely having some money coming into both outfits(leasing co.and admin.)is better than having 18 aircraft sitting on the tarmac earning nothing.Just sounds abit odd to me,but then these people work in mysterious waysto point where old joe soap like me is totally bamboozled

sassygirl


Joined: 16/08/2008
Posts: 3

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 16:30

HI



Looking at prices from Larnaca back to UK some operators are jumping on the bandwagon and increasing their prices. This does happen wont be the first and it wont be the last.



Just remember if you are charged high prices you have a choice in the future to avoid these companies.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 16:57

Karakum5c, good advice but I will say again that if you booked via an agent using a credit card, if the agent has forwarded funds to the tour operator then you will NOT be covered for a refund because under Card Scheme Rules, the agent has fulfilled their obligation in making the booking and issuing tickets. By all means try and get your CC company to refund but you may find that they take months just to tell you this anyway.

doughnuts40


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 98

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 17:56

Hmmm. I wasnt aware that XL flew into Ercan!

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 18:15

Coachie totally agree but when things go bust they take no prisoners!!!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 18:33

dalartokat..yeah..the only prisoners in my opinion should be the directors though you probably wont agree with me on that. I have no doubt it willall come out in the wash, as they , in about six months time .

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 19:19

Coachie, totally agree!!!(you didn't see that coming did you!!!)

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 21:36

dalartokat..certainly didnt caught me with my trousers around my ankles there..././

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 21:41

hi all ....now this business with XLhas got me thinking about my flights for next year that i have booked with Monarch,but did it the so called safe way used my flexible friend...

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
13/09/2008 22:48

Posted this on another thread about XL, so just to repeat.



Usually when a firm is trying to refinance they do not give any indication to the financial markets and the public. If they did this there credibility and trust collapses. Share prices go south and the firm goes bankrupt anyway.



By trying to maintain the companies operating systems they can at least try to remain viable. In this case the company backers obviously felt there was no hope and they have no option but to go into liquidation.



Over the years a number of airlines have taken this route, the most notable I can recall was Intasun, I believe in 1987. This was the biggest player in the holiday market at the time. The consequences here were far worse than XL.



Unfortunatley this sort of thing happens every day, usually on a smaller scale and with out the impact to so many people. That is the name of the game.



Personally I am surprised it has taken so long for a holiday company to go down, they are all probably in a similar position and as long as the problems continue on the world money markets there are going to be several more casualties in this group. Best advice I would offer is when booking a holiday or flight make sure you have adequate insurance and you pay with credit card.

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
14/09/2008 00:10

Coachie, I have completely wiped that vision from my mind!!! but think you have made a wise decision, remember Atol number, Credit card and Insurance(which you may have to pay quite a bit more for). As for Monach airlines.......... well. lol!!!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
14/09/2008 12:26

Dalartokat...After readingall the advise on hereand on the TV I thought it prudent to deal direct with Monarch because that way the card company covers me.If youdeal with one of these flight agencies they say there obligation is finished if the agent has paid the airlline so they have an out.AS has been said on this thread and others, I,joe public, went for price and they were cffering a good deal,if i get my fingers burned, then I can only blame myself, after what has just happened to XL.....

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
14/09/2008 14:42

afternoon all ...going back on one of my previos comments as to why the CAA cant use XL aircraft to getthese people home,one of the biggest people in business has said exactly the same ,none other thanSIR RICHARD BRANSON.Icnly hope some body out ther starts to use some common sense and do it

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
14/09/2008 15:54

Slipper1... thats certainly true if you have enuogh funds to pay for everything till you are rescued.Some of those people have got 2/3 kids with and probably no cash or cards to pay for any thing,Idont think they would agree with you. My wife and I were strande for acouple of days after 9/11 in Brazil, but the airline paid for it ,and like you say ,we could not have cared less if it was another month, just trying to give acomparison.

HAPPY FEET


Joined: 18/07/2008
Posts: 416

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 14:29

When we flew to Barbados they were charging £10 each for a small DVD screen to watch movies bloody cheap skates!!



So what happened to all the profits XL made before the oil prices shot up ??

ttoli


Joined: 24/03/2007
Posts: 1172

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 14:43

HAPPY FEET, sorry but you get what you pay for. For good complimentary in flight entertainment, better seat pitch and food, fly with BA, Vigin or BWI.

HAPPY FEET


Joined: 18/07/2008
Posts: 416

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 17:34

BA have also gone down hill ttoli..



You should still be given good service even if its cheaper, good manners with a helpful attitude and the abillity to give clear information to passengers isn't rocket science..

ilovemydogs



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 19:32

getting our money back, as we paid with the card , but we have to wait because there are worse cases than us, i agree some poor souls are still stranded

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 21:00

Money back - Glad to hear it.



Tom

http://www.flightholiday.co.uk

tyofidleness


Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 16

Message Posted:
17/09/2008 23:53

I work in Trading Standards and yes I bought XL flights direct.



If you have bought future flights direct and are not ATOL protected by having purchased through an ATOL agent then you will have recourse if you purchased on your credit card.



Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 makes credit providers who are tied to the supplier (Debtor/Creditor/Supplier agreements) equally liable for breach of contract as long as the purchase was over £100. This means that because they allowed their credit to purchase the flights they are "equally liable". This is why you should always use a credit card for a risky purchase if possible. The credit card companies hate this provision of the Act which the courts have recently ruled also applies to purchases made abroad. So for any breach of contract that cant be claimed against the supplier (because they have gone bust in this case) they are liable.



If you purchased using a debit card you MAY have some recourse via your banks chargeback procedure but you need to contact your bank urgently to see if this applies.



ty

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
18/09/2008 11:31

Hi Tyo re message 54:



Small correction to your statement:

"If you have bought future flights direct and are not ATOL protected by having purchased through an ATOL agent then you will have recourse if you purchased on your credit card. "



If you have bought from an ATOL bonded agent and the payment has been made in 24 hours from them to the flight company or is made with a c/c direct on the consolidator or airline it does not come under the ATOL regulations. If you are given an ATOL receipt then the ATOL holder may well be liable, assuming they have authorised the agent involved to trade with them.