The Orams Case - Review of Recent Developments

Marilyn


Joined: 29/08/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
21/09/2008 14:52

Forum member may be interested to read about the latest turn of events the European Court of Justice. I did'nt realize that thsi drama had been running for so long. Let's hope Linda and David are bearing up.

http://www.wellestates.com/north_cyprus_orams.htm

Lov

Marilyn

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
21/09/2008 17:06

Marilyn

thanks for the update.



I have copied some to the 'Illegal Immigrants' thread, hope you don't mind!





rob

BIllie Boo


Joined: 21/09/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
22/09/2008 20:29

Marilyn

One remark in the story surprised me - their house in Brighton is more at risk than the villa in Lapta. Surely, this cant be true ?

Billie

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
22/09/2008 20:40

Be aware that Marilyn is simply using this forum in order to promote Wellington Estates which I disagree with.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
22/09/2008 21:15

Billie Boo,



That's all about the prospects (or not) of a UK resident having their property in Britain seized under European law for occupying GC property in the TRNC. The case is still being debated.

Marilyn


Joined: 29/08/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
22/09/2008 21:31

Dear Hector

You really can be negative. I would have thought that this story is of serious interest to all of us who have bought a property here. Just because it is on a company website doesnt mean it is rubbish. If all the comment on the Orams was as well written as this, many of us would be much clearer in our own minds.

Lov

Marilyn

Nunu1


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 536

Message Posted:
22/09/2008 22:49

I met Linda and David Oram at Ercan last November flying back to UK.

Very nice couple, I had a brief chat with them and wished them well.



The outcome of their case will no doubt set the Precedent for many other land and property disputes going on between the North and the South.



Mr Talat and Mr Christianos are currently in talks to come to a solution, one of the most complex in the World I would guess.



My opinion is that should any compensations be due in any cases, I think Governments, UN and EU should borne the costs rather than individuals. What do other members think?



nunu

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 09:08

Very well written piece.



I don't care where the information is published, as long as it is published and accurate, for all our sakes.



Thanks Marilyn for letting us know where to look on this very important subject for all of us.



MC

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 09:44

Nunu1. I agree partly with what you say regarding the payment of compensation. However I do feel that we will have to 'put our hands in our pockets' at some point. I just can't see the UN or the EU paying any compensation at all. Turkey will pay some percentage but not all. I certainly feel that we will not have to give up our properties though, under any circumstances.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 09:47

nunu,



I wholly agree that there should be compensation for all sides (if there is to be a just and fair settlement) BUT IT MUST BE AT 1974 PRICES.



What I cannot get my head around is...we have bought exchange land. If the former land owner is to be compensated (If I have to pay him the land value, that my villa is built on) then will I then own the land that was offerred in exchange, or am I just expected to pay twice for the same land?



My builder stated in my contract, that he was the owner of the land, and therefore had the right to sell it. Will I be able to sue the builder for the original cost of the land, if I have to pay the owner again.



Can anyone give me a balanced explanation? PLEASE!



Well posted Marilyn, I agree with mcsteviot. Well explained.



wyn

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 10:08

I agree that IF any compensation is to be paid it should be paid to both sides or their successors. In the case of any "TRNC" land it should be the developer who sold it to you and the person he bought it off and possibly other owners since 1974 who should pay, as it was approved at the point of sale by the TRNC legal system. However judging by my limited knowledge and experience it will be the foreigners(British) who may be eventually looked to for any moneys.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 10:37

Wyn. I agree - it must be 1974 prices.

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 11:02

And if they wanted to add interest to say for example 1000 pounds at 5% p.a compounded over 25yrs it would more than triple it!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 12:50

Nunu: "My opinion is that should any compensations be due in any cases, I think Governments, UN and EU should borne the costs rather than individuals. What do other members think?"



On the other hand why should taxpayers elsewhere be expected to bail out gamblers? Shouldn't people who choose to get involved in controversial dealings be responsible for their own decisions?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 12:55

Yes, just like the Northern Rock!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 12:55

That is a good point PP. I don't think one can expect the EU or UN to pay compensation.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 13:05

not unless they were absolutely sure that it would secure peace in the region - perhaps?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 13:14

Mark, even if it was to secure peace in the region, I am certain the UN and the EU would not put a compensation package together.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 13:31

I agree Bill. Surprisngly Cyprus isn't classed as a risk in respect of an outbreak of war.



Turkey are not going to be able to pay. Perhaps the Americans would have paid in exchange for the military base (if this was more than just a rumour) but they surely would not have any funds now after bailing out their financial institutions. I would also expect that their military budget is close to being exhausted spent on campaigns in Iran and Afghanistan.



What has really surprised me is the lack of news that the Cyprus affair has generated on the International stage. If an agreement is reached it would impact thousands of people in one way or the other, in ways that the world may have not witnessed before or for a very long time.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 14:04

Sadly it doesn't appear to be 'big' news anywhere. I think the situation has gone on for so long people are turning a blind eye to it.

Nunu1


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 536

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 15:04

As this is a very difficult issue with the History and Politics, I think it needs to be handled in a sensible way by the Governments to come to a workable solution. I personally believe the Turkish Government should borne the majority of the costs/compensation where due for land loss etc.



(Due to the Turkish invasion)



However, both Turks and Greeks lost land...etc.



I have been told many times most of the land is exchange land, so this must have been legally exchanged on both sides? Yes/No?



If the outcome is for Lawyers to sort all land disputes/exchanges....it will be another 40 years before its all sorted!



Maybe I will enroll to study to be a Lawyer....(And brush up on my Turkish and Greek!)



nunu

Nunu1


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 536

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 15:21

In addition to my last posting, The land purchaser ie the builder/developer should if need be contribute to any compensation should it be due and not the property purchaser.....Thats my opinion....You buy a property in good faith...if the land is stolen or not legally owned....then the developer should be held liable...Again not the house buyer.



Most of us that have bought would simply not be in a financial position to pay compensation...what happens then? 5 thousand properties for sale!

The market is dead now!.....if anything the Presidents need to include policies to improve house prices/purchases proceedures if anything!?



Kochans/Titles and Permissions to purchase issues come to mind!!!!



nunu

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 16:30

Nunu1: "I have been told many times most of the land is exchange land, so this must have been legally exchanged on both sides? Yes/No?"



The answer is a firm "No". Ten minutes research should give you all you need to know. But I'll bet you've checked it out already. ;)

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 16:35

Nunu1: "You buy a property in good faith...if the land is stolen or not legally owned....then the developer should be held liable...Again not the house buyer."



Good faith is an unheard of concept in North Cyprus. Developers are for the most part Turkish or Turkish Cypriot. They will be protected and will never have to pay a penny as long as a foreigner has signed the contract. They have rights. Foreigners have none worth a jot.

Nunu1


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 536

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 16:35

PtePike...Yes I am aware not all is legally exchanged.....So....hence the Governments need to deal with this.........leaving it to individuals/owners and Lawyers it would never get resolved done etc...



nunu

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 18:52

wyn re post 10.

in the event of a solution i think the builder will be long gone.



compensation was ordered by the e.u court ,regarding a woman who has the turkish army occupying her land. i don't think even then they have paid her out.



the problem with the 1974 prices is: if the gc's give back the tc's property and land in the south, they can sell it at todays prices. so why would they accept 1974 prices for their land?



would you sell me your land and villa at 1974 prices? no.



the e.u could step in but will they?



the british gov has advised about buying in the north so why would they help?



my personal thought on it would be: anyone who has a full time home here and no other home elsewhere should not be made homeless. the trnc gov should compensate, as they allowed the sale, issued the deeds and took the tax.



those who have only holiday homes should be given there money back. claims in the courts against those who sold it should be upheld and compensation paid by the seller so to speak. the trnc gov should enforce that.



how many gc's would actually come and live in the north?



i believe that some would but others wouldn't and all they are after is to sell it on for profit. which is ok. i don't think that gives them the rights to kick out another eu citizen and make them homeless for profit. again i think it should be a point that if they are given it back, they shouldn't be able to sell it for say maybe 5 years. rules for both north and south.



i have a tc neighbour who wants to now look at his land in paphos, he only wants the money not to live there. on the other hand i have met gc's who want to go back and live in famagusta.



i think its a very different ball game from the property being your only home to a second or third home or as an investor. selling for profit or living there.



i have two tc's friends who both live on exchange land. one is a policeman and the other in gov now. neither have any idea of what is about to happen with the property issue. both have loads to loose.



if i hear anything from them i will let you know.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 19:58

firestarter,



I can see why you chose that name to post.



If any settlement followed your suggestions, the courts would not be able to allocate you a slot for the next 1000 years.



Compensation all round settled inter Government, with perhaps a sweetener thrown in by the EU.



If the EU pay for solar farms to provide electricity, and the water pipeline is completed to plan, by Turkey, and paid for by the EU, all the rest will fall into place.



Exchange land will be ratified, with compensation elsewhere! There will of course be side deals to accomodate local sensibilities.



Simple as that!!! Just my thoughts, thats all!



wyn

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 23:08

nunu



the land you have bought on," in 74 was worth nothing you couldn,t give it away" as you are aware i have bought on the same site and prior too this i did some ,well lots of research ,however this is not the reason i bought ,i bought

becouse i fell in love with the site .

when we saw the site it just had pegs in the ground ,we looked back at the mountains and then at the sea and bang .

you have nothing to worry about.



musin

JONNY


Joined: 21/09/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
23/09/2008 23:57

is there greek land in the turkish notrh

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/09/2008

msge 29



Greek Cypriot not Greek (mainland Greece)

Nunu1


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 536

Message Posted:
24/09/2008 00:12

MusinM. Eehn Shalla! (Excuse my spelling please correct me) I feel comfortable in what you have said, I too stood on that site with Nadav and the big map and chose my apartment. It felt right, very Spiritual, I trusted my gut feeling.



I too fell in love with the location.........



nunu

BIllie Boo


Joined: 21/09/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
24/09/2008 23:18

I looked into the compensation matter with several 'experts' in 2004 when the Annan Plan was topical. A figure of £4 - £5k per plot was estimated for compensation to dispossessed greeks. This was either for Esdeger or TMD land. In October 2004, the TRNC government 'guaranteed' all TRNC title deeds and by implication agreed to pay this compensation

Billie Boo

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 00:26

Billy Boo ,

aware of TRNC guarantee, but don't think they have the cash if they had to pay.

mickey rourke


Joined: 27/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 07:06

Well then pilgrim, NEITHER DO WE

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 07:25

I think most people would be happy to pay this type of sum to expunge any claim on their home...



Mick were you never advised to put this sort of sum aside just in case?

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 09:42

The Greek Cypriot parliament was privy recently to a visit by a member of the ECHR to inform them (try to let them down lightly) that things in the Orams case, and others, were likely to go against them. Long faces were plentiful, apparently. This was all printed in the Cyprus Mail so must be true!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 10:15

humans love certainty, it makes up for our smallness and weakness



this is why we dream up things to fill in what we don't know

given a hypothetical situation that a compensation package

could ever be agreed for both communities to benefit,

it is impossible at this time to be imagine how it might work...

a practical figure might be between three and six grand

simply because it can't be much more or nobody could pay it!



certainly never put your trust in guarantees from either side:

we saw what happened to the guarantees in the 1960 constitution

but yes, it is accepted that the government of the north

has made various promises and I do not doubt their sincerity



in the highly unlikely event of any of this ever happening,

and assuming you actually had to find the cash yourself,

the value of your modest home built on scrubland would jump



just thank your lucky stars you would not have to stump up

for gc-occupied larnaca airport!



trnc property prices already include a discount for legal conundrums



andre

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 12:20

JONNY: "is there greek land in the turkish notrh"



Yes, most of the land (and houses built on it) is legally owned by Greek Cypriots - by some accounts about 80%.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 14:42

wyn re post 27



i don't need the courts to give me any of their time!

my title deed is pre 1974 turkish tile.

i sleep very well at night!



where i was coming from was that this issue should be based on more personal circumstances.

if it is your only home, why should a gc who wants just to sell for profit be allowed to make you homeless.

where as someone who purchased to make a profit and lives elsewhere, should have to give the land/house back to its original gc owner who wants to live in it.





everyone to their own choice, but don't go crying over spilt milk if it all goes wrong.

only time will tell.



larnaca airport is a little different. the land was taken by the roc gov to expand the airport. just like goverments do in other eu countries for the same purpose or road widening ect. yes the roc gov will have to compensate under the compulsary purchase rules. but this happens all over even in the uk.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 17:08

I agree with msg 39

Jolly Tar


Joined: 17/09/2008
Posts: 3

Message Posted:
25/09/2008 19:00

Thanks Frontalman for that piece of information in your post 36

Marilyn


Joined: 29/08/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
05/10/2008 14:16

I heard that the Orams house at Lapta was built on a plot which already had a derelict and abandoned property on it. Can anyone comment on this ?

Lov Marilyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/10/2008 21:59

Fire-starter,



'my title is pre 1974 Turkish Title.......I sleep very well at night'.



How about if all property on Cyprus is made Leasehold on a 99 year lease? Whilst I would

not be terribly happy if that route were taken, I could see the rationale if it helped settle the

Cyprus Problem. Guess if that happens we will all be in the same boat (from an inheritance

point of view)



wyn

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 357

Message Posted:
05/10/2008 22:14

I sleep very well at night with my TRNC exchange title especially knowing TCs have had some justice from all this.

wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
06/10/2008 03:01

message 38



JONNY: "is there greek land in the turkish notrh"







Yes, most of the land (and houses built on it) is legally owned by Greek Cypriots - by some accounts about 80%.



simply a lie and propaganda, if you genuinely want to delve into history than the vast majority of the cyprus was owned by the 'evgaf' which was fundamentally islamic and not greek at all.



the facts are that both sides lost land and lives, both sides have security now. The majority of GC's are not at fault it was the minority or greeks that wanted enosis that caused the problems, it was this minority that cajoled the greeks cypriots into wanting enosis as to reject it was anti greek! in a similar fashion the recent years vote on the anand plan was rejected as anti greek (gc's were told that to vote for was a vote against the church and their religion). it was in the face of this intimidation that the greek cypriots rejected the anand plan that had already been agreed by the turks.



we have a solution - we are living it right now - enjoy it!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/10/2008 23:02

msg45: "...simply a lie and propaganda, if you genuinely want to delve into history than the vast majority of the cyprus was owned by the 'evgaf' which was fundamentally islamic and not greek at all."



You wish it wasn't true. Take a trip to the land registry in Nicosia, check the title register and see for yourself the massive patches of blue all over the map of Kyrenia district and the north. Then ask yourself why the land registry in Kyrenia no longer allows public access for property title searches. Clue - it's because they hold the same records. As I said, around 80% of property in the TRNC is legally owned by Greek Cypriots. Not political, just fact.



Who is "evgaf", BTW? Surely if you're going to start quoting historical religious organisations you are capable of getting their names right.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/10/2008 00:48

Do you mean EVKAF? The Charity started by the Ottomans?

http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/history/ottoman/evkaf.html

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/10/2008 01:06

Or this may be interesting reading?

http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/history/ottoman/evkaf.html



Varosha - Was it ever greek? Ehhh NO!

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
07/10/2008 01:08

OOOpps Sorry I meant to paste this.

http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2003/reu190503ghosttown.htm

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
07/10/2008 09:22

The systematic appropriation of Turkish Cypriot land by stealth... changing "ownership" by means other than legitimate purchase and falsification of "deeds" is not a new thing... For the likes of Pike it serves their purpose only to pick a fixed point in history and try to hold that this proves the land is Greek Cypriot... The famers who historically owned the majority of land not held in trust by the Evkaf were predominantly Turkish... this fact is well documented.. So how did the Greek Cypriots come to be majority "owners" of the land? Well they were left in charge of running the shop... so it was quite easy for them to achieve this sleight of hand....



This happened in the UK too... In Edinburgh in fact when, not too many years ago, workers in the Land Resgistry there helped themselves to parcels of land for whom no known living owner could be identified... They applied (during their work hours mind) to have the ownership made over into their own names.. so they were being paid to by the public to appropriate land making themselves rich.... Cheeky buggers...

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/10/2008 10:47

groucho

in the years before 1974 the gc's put preasure on the tc's to buy their property at cheep prices and drive them out. hoping that they would go over/back to turkey.



wyn re post43

i don't think the goverment can legally sell an internationally recognised title deed as freehold and later reduce it to a leasehold for 99 years. you purchased what you purchased. i first heard this on the 1st of april!!

i was told last week that the gov had brought or is about to bring in, a new law stating that you cannot sell your house here until you have owned it for 3 years (from when your name goes on the kochan). if you do there will be some sort of tax implication.

i have been talking to a few people about it and they seam to think it is bull. but i was told by tc friends who are pretty well connected. i don't know if anyone connected with the hbpg has heard this?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
09/10/2008 13:25

firestarter,



From postings on this board.....nothing the TRNC Government does, is internationally recognised.



Any law of the land of an Internationally recognised Government can be changed by statute



can't it?



wyn

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
09/10/2008 15:55

I feel I have to put my opinion on the land issue. If the widely bandied about figures are correct prior to 74 the TC population of 18% owned land across the island of some 30%. If the land of what is now TRNC was 80% GC owned 20% TC owned that means that TC's must own between 30/40% of the land in what is now the ROC(if my maths is right). I have always felt that the ethos between the 2 communities was different after 74 the GC's generally dreaming of "going home" whereas the TC's having established themselves in the north generally had no intention of returning to their previous lands so I think that the "exchange" land system was fair. Whilst it was not with agreement of the previous owner in the north at least it gave the opportunity for people to make a fresh start. For example would you develop land if it was only "rented" to you? And in addition the lands left behind by the TC's in the south must be worth far more per donum in today's money.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
09/10/2008 21:52

the turkish came to the north to stay and thats whats going to happen.the seeds have been planted and have now rooted and rooted deep ,theirs no way you can up root them now.



musin

long live the kktc

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/10/2008 12:45

Lincsman: "I think that the "exchange" land system was fair. Whilst it was not with agreement of the previous owner in the north at least it gave the opportunity for people to make a fresh start. For example would you develop land if it was only "rented" to you? And in addition the lands left behind by the TC's in the south must be worth far more per donum in today's money."



Much as people occupying someone else's property would like this to be the case, it has no moral or legal basis whatsoever. The people who count here are genuine displaced Cypriots. Those who came after to try and make a cheap buck are a different kettle of fish and can be dealt with accordingly.

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
10/10/2008 13:37

To Pte Pike,



If you had been in charge, what would you have done differently?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/10/2008 22:47

Lincsman,



I would have prevented the sale of Greek Cypriot properties in the north. It was against the law to do this in the TRNC until around 1990. Since then it has become an unregulated free-for-all - and the issue has become a major barrier to settlement. Instead of following the GC example of not allowing the private sale of TC property, greedy developers fuelled by willing buyers started throwing up holiday homes everywhere. North Cyprus has been spoiled by overdevelopment, much of it shoddy and hideous.



Instead of trying to work towards a sustainable future and encouraging talented TCs to build the economy, the dead wood authorities took the easy way out and turned a ready asset belonging to refugees into a cash cow with no need to plan for the future. It doesn't take a genius to work out that unless you actually produce something, you can't rely on property development to sustain an economy. I would have made it attractive to invest in the TRNC - not created obstacles.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 01:26

Just dug out an interesting video looking at the land dispute. It's a year old mind you and 20 minutes long.



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CG7aKOBTapM

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 12:15

ILC a fairly balanced report for a change. Whatever next! reporters getting "both sides of the story" in the future.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 15:07

Hi Lincsman



Like yoiu I thought it was well balanced. I guess it has highlighted PP's claim that property occupancy in the North has made reunification much harder, if not impossible.



The last 5 minutes of the video really highlights the reality of the property issuse which ishows it is a complete mess and probably unresolvable without large amounts of pain and distress for many.



For sure, the GC lady would desperately move back to her place on the front in Kyrenia. Who wouldn't, it is absolutely beuatiful and prime retail. I am sure the TC occupants would not want to relinquish their hold on that property, nor the English occupiers of one the flats (that Turkish General did well to sort himself out a prime location )



If you could persuade the TC' family to reclaim their home in the South, what then happens to the GC occupants - and the chain goes on and on.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 19:23

As I understood it the property compensation scheme contemplated in the Annan plan provided in the majority of situations where properties had been owned by Turkish refugees and subsequent purchases compensation would be payable to former GC owners rather than them having the right of return.



Given the large number of Turkish properties in the same position in the south most of the compensation would be naturally offsetting and paid by a property compensation body taking control of all of these affected properties.



You would expect the end result of the current negotiations to be something similar.



Could you really imagine TC's voting in favour of a solution where most would be forced to leave their homes here and return to the South ?



Also the issues about respective GC/ TC property ownership doesn't take into account all of the respective government owned and non titled land existing in 1974 which should be equally and indivisibly owned by both communities.



Aussie

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 21:51

Aussie: "Could you really imagine TC's voting in favour of a solution where most would be forced to leave their homes here and return to the South ?"



The proportion of genuine TCs who would face being uprooted is a fraction compared to Turkish settlers and their dependents who were shipped in to occupy GC property. This is a red herring, IMO. You also have to take into account the huge numbers of TCs who cashed in their chips years ago and emigrated.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 22:39

Pike



There are still large numbers of TC's here plus many who have returned from 1974 to date when it was safe for them to do so and they can vote.



Are you saying there is no significant TC population here ?



Many GC's also emigrated and many more have sold property since 1974 as well.



Time does not stand still and it was perfectly reasonable for TC's to sell there exchanged properties in the North as they saw fit. It was made difficult or impossible for most to have sold their land in the South even if they wanted to as an alternative due to the ROC policies and effective control of these properties.



Aussie

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/10/2008 22:47

Aussie: "Time does not stand still and it was perfectly reasonable for TC's to sell there exchanged properties in the North as they saw fit."



Only because Turkey's tame puppet Denktas allowed them to do so - thus creating one of the biggest obstacles for future settlement and bringing a new meaning for wholesale corruption and nepotism.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 09:19

wyn re post 52

my pre 1974 title deed is recognised by the roc goverment and the e.u courts of human rights.



lincsman re post 53

in your sums you forgot about the % of pre 1974 foreign owned title deeds!



pike re post 62

i totally agree. my friend who lives just outside the village comes from paphos, he doesn't want to go back there. he would be financially better off to do so, but he won't be going.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 10:08

Firestarter...



Pike msg 62 was quoting Aussie, so who are you agreeing with? Aussie or Pike...



Aussie said "Could you really imagine TC's voting in favour of a solution where most would be forced to leave their homes here and return to the South ? "



your last para seems to concur with this opinion, which was Aussie's not Pike's

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 11:56

I do concur with Aussie on this. I re-iterate the point that I don't believe that the average TC wants to return to the South to reclaim their lands. To Pte Pike IMO I think it was unrealistic to expect the lands not to be sold for development, who can blame the TC's for wanting some of the perceived tourism/investment that the South has received. In addition the Annan Plan did not envisage wholesale resettlement anyway, so at the end of the day it comes down to compensation.

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:00

To ILC I do agree that there are so many unfortunate situations, but I do believe that any settlement has to take into account the fact that anything other than token resettlement will not happen.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:23

As the TC lady said at the end of the video, th TC's have the right to benefit in the same way as the GC's have done.

It is unrealistic to have expected the TC's to not have taken advantage of one of their primary assets which is land, especially after the GC vote of 'no' in 2004. How else could they have increased their meagre wealth. The country is embargoed.

As Marion Stokes said on the video, you have to deal with the realities of the day.

I agree with Aussie, firestarter and Lincsman that the TC's are unlikley to move South. The only way that they would move, is if they were significantly financially better off than they are now,and if large numbers of their family and friends moved at the same time,thus securing community. Both of these provisions are exceedingly unlikley to happen imo

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:32

Good post ILC. It's not that I don't feel sorry for everyone from both sides who has been displaced, but I think like you do that any settlement has to take account of the "realiities on the ground".

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:38

ilc: "It is unrealistic to have expected the TC's to not have taken advantage of one of their primary assets which is land, especially after the GC vote of 'no' in 2004. How else could they have increased their meagre wealth. The country is embargoed."



The illegal sale of refugee property started in the early 90s, long before Annan. Why bother actually going to the effort of building an economy or manufacturing base when you can just steal someone else's property? It's so much easier when much of the best talent has disappeared with the brain drain. Why else would there be such a lack of strategic thinking, forward planning and policy development - all essentials for a stable economy? Embargo? Denktas emposed isolation on the Turkish Cypriot people by his ludicrous creation of the "TRNC". And in any case, what are the real effects of an "embargo" when practically any consumer goods you care to mention are freely available in the north? Embargo, or victim and dependancy culture?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:48

PP



What do the GC's manufacture? How much of the GDP comes from manufacturing?

For that matter what does Britain manufacture? Very few countries can compete with the economies of scale that the Chinese and other Asian countries produce at?



75,000 Brits (not to mention Russians) live in the South. Surely that is producing a sizeable income for the GC's. Why can't the Tc's do the same?



At the end of the day the biggest wealth producer for the South has to be tourism. The TC's are not allowed direct flights and the GC propoganda machine has done a good job of putting people off from coming to the North.



The only area where the GC's have been hurting is the shipping trade.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 12:58

ilc,



The lack of direct flights is down to Turkey. You can't go around invading, partitioning and declaring banana republics, and that's the message the world has sent.



As for the shipping trade, I don't think the GCs are hurting as much as some people believe over the shipping trade. Famagusta is no good for container shipping while Limassol is ideal and well developed. Opening up Turkish ports would help, but TR is not following the rules.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 13:03

PP

My understanding is that the GC's have fallen from being the 2nd largest shipping company to the 10th. If what you are saying is true, then the decline would have more to do with how the GCs conduct business.



We both know that Tukey intervened. Just to repeat intervened.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 15:42

ilc: "We both know that Tukey intervened. Just to repeat intervened."



Of course Turkey intervened. And the intervention took the form of an amphibious and airborne military invasion. Only a fool would deny the fact. Much the same as the Allied invasion - sorry, intervention - of Normandy. See what I mean? Silly, isn't it?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 16:05

Clearly your logic makes sense to you PP. Not to me.

How else was Turkey going to intervene? Perhaps they could have gone over in rowing boats, wearing clowns outfits, with the sole intention of creating a peaceful solution by compelling the GC's to laugh in to submission.



Perhaps you would like to talk about Greeces involvement. Greek soldiers were probably on the island enjoying a historical educational trip, which was arranged peacefully by the ruling Greek military Junta.



At the end of the day both you and I looked at the facts and history of Cyprus. Yopu decided that the GC's were the victims and I decided that the TC's lost the most.

You could have bought a property in the South, but like me you took advantage and bought a cheaper property in the North. You bought a Turkish title because your sunstantial inheritence probably allowed you to do so, whereas my meagre finances only allowed me an Esdeger.

It would be so much more to your liking if chavy Brits like me were

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 16:06

part 2



extradited and then you would be able to rub shoulders with a more 'well to do' class of people.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 17:25

Who would we like to be taking part in the talks to help achieve a cordial resolution?



Someone who will make the following comments?:





"Those who came after to try and make a cheap buck are a different kettle of fish and can be dealt with accordingly. "



"Good faith is an unheard of concept in North Cyprus."



" around 80% of property in the TRNC is legally owned by Greek Cypriots."



" Turkey's tame puppet Denktas "



"wholesale corruption and nepotism."



" steal someone else's property?"



"ludicrous creation of the "TRNC".



"You can't go invading, partitioning and declaring banana republics,"



" the intervention took the form of an amphibious and airborne military invasion. Only a fool would deny the fact."







Such statements would not make them an ideal impartial candidate for a peaceful settlement.





They wouldn't come from Talat or Christofias, Bush or Brown, Anan or UN.



Who could make such divisive comments???







rob

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 17:42

msge 78



spot on post Robnjo

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 17:54

ROBnJO,





Errmm! Pass...... I will not debate with that man. There is no happiness in debating with that man. As my old father used to say "Even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story.



wyn

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 19:09

Excellent post ROBnJO.

One imagines that he denies Turkish Cypriots were murdered before the "intervention " came to stop the unchecked, Athens backed, horror, in the same way it is becoming popular to deny a similar, but much larger, ethnic cleansing held between 60 and 70 years ago .

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 19:49

ILC: "At the end of the day both you and I looked at the facts and history of Cyprus. Yopu decided that the GC's were the victims and I decided that the TC's lost the most."



Wrong. I think both GCs and TCs were victims - and the TCs lost the most. But unlike you I don't take sides.



ILC: "...like me you took advantage and bought a cheaper property in the North. You bought a Turkish title because your sunstantial inheritence probably allowed you to do so, whereas my meagre finances only allowed me an Esdeger."



Your morals allowed you an "exchanged" property, surely? Clever people don't make assumptions. My inheritence? Tell me more. Took advantage? Of what? I could have bought north or south, but it had to be a legal title. Money's not an issue for me. Morals are.



ILC: "...if chavy Brits like me were extradited you would be able to rub shoulders with a more 'well to do' class of people."



I like clever, witty people. You are one of the brighter ones but the bar is low.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 20:01

ROBnJO: "Who would we like to be taking part in the talks to help achieve a cordial resolution?



Someone who will make the following comments?:



"Those who came after to try and make a cheap buck are a different kettle of fish and can be dealt with accordingly. "



"Good faith is an unheard of concept in North Cyprus."



"around 80% of property in the TRNC is legally owned by Greek Cypriots."



"Turkey's tame puppet Denktas "



"wholesale corruption and nepotism."



"steal someone else's property?"



"ludicrous creation of the "TRNC".



"You can't go invading, partitioning and declaring banana republics,"



"the intervention took the form of an amphibious and airborne military invasion. Only a fool would deny the fact."'





Dear oh dear.



You seem to think I'm a negotiator for the peace talks. I'm not. I'm an observer and commentator like everyone on this BB. Except I've been trained in the role. And I note you haven't disagreed with any of my above points.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 20:04

Wynyardman: "As my old father used to say "Even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story."



Unfortunately you took this at face value without detecting the irony in his words.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 23:03

Oh Hello Pikey,



Fame at last eh!



wyn

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 23:11

wyn



bypass him





musin

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 23:14

MusimM,



The man is an annoyance to the soul!



wyn

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 23:51

I read in post 82 he dosen't take sides ?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 08:24

well said pike!



the tc's and gc's have had an ongoing thing for years.



why as brits should we take sides?



i often argue with friends from both camps on the issues, i don't just side with the tc's because i live here.



as outsiders i see our role is to help both sides be reasonable and find a solution. not to back one or the other.

others may not have that view, but may have other motives for not wanting a solution to the cyprus prob.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 12:21

fire starter,



I knew there had to be someone somewhere with a sense of honour and reality. Selfishness and self interest corrupts so many people.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 13:45

I think the point here if you don't believe TC's should be able to sell the land they received in exchange for what they lost in 1974 and before, you are effectively taking sides in favour of the GC position whichever way you try to dress it up.



How long should they wait to get on with their lives isn't 34 years and counting enough ?



If you take the GC line to its logical conclusion you would have to completely redraw the maps of Europe to bring back all of those who lost property at the end of the Second World War as well such as Germany with East Prussia ( a long standing region of that country) and in other cases since, such as Israel etc.



As for the line of thinking that wars can never again be allowed to redraw territories this has happened since the dawn of time and still continues today. What about South Vietnam wasn't it conquered by the North and private land redistributed without compensatuion as recently as 1975.



Aussie

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 14:11

Pte Pike



Your are facing a losing battle here. If people wish to live in free democracies they must adhere to the fundamental principle that property cannot be transferred without the agreement and signature of the transferee on a deed (i.e. witnessed) of transfer. I do not believe the examples of land grab worldwide (Vietnam, Zimbabwe, E Europe after WW2) can be construed as democracies.



The GCs never agreed to any 'exchange' and owners did not sign any transfer.



Brits who have bought villas on GC land at knock down prices will expound various arguments to cover their greed and lack of moral fibre.



You are facing a losing battle as this BB is just for Brits who believe everything TC is great and answer any criticism with abuse, which this posting will receive.



they can live on stolen land but it will not be in a democracy.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 14:35

hey namus



long time no hear. Nice to see you back

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 14:47

Thank you.



I stopped posting due to the abuse, accusations of being GC etc. The normal response alternative views receive here.



However, I could not believe how deluded buyers of 'exchange' land are.



The Oram case is purely to do with jurisdiction. Nothing to do with rights of ownership.



If it is accepted to take land by force then this will set a fine precedent (the basis of English law) and it will be a free for all....bring back Gary Robb as the Minister of Housing.



I find it amusing that TCs (as you know my wife is TC) accept that they are stealing GC land (and could not care less) while the Brits try to make excuses.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 17:51

Namus,



I must have joined after you. You are so right about the predictable responses. But most of us learn moral values at a young age and stick to them thereafter. The justifications are amusing as you say.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 19:34

namus



Hi, I am one of those Brits who have purchased in NC. I am not into justifying my purchase, I just want to see a resolution of the current position.



On most BB's the prolific posters are usually at the more extreme 'left or right' of any discussion. The majority of 'middle of the road' parties do not get involved.



My view is that the world has moved on and the current talks are the greatest opportunity for resolution since the Anan proposals.



What I do find unhelpful is comments about 'Turkish Atrocities' or 'Greek Atrocities', etc. Similarly with property issues.



If a resolution means I must pay, then I will pay.



We have visited Cyprus, N & S, for 25 yrs and met friendly hospitable peoples on both sides.



We would love it to be one island again, even with different jurisdictions.



Driving between England and Scotland, or Wales, you move into different jurisdictions, each with 'National' pride.



Please don't 'tar' all Brits the same.





rob

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 21:11

msg 89

firestarter who has asked you to take sides ,t/cs or g/cs ,you should try and stay on an even station and not go above others ,you post as if as a brit you are above both these peoples stations think again .



namus

you tell us what democracy is ,maybe 34 years of isolation as a starting point

you can explain to the turkish cypriots and tell them what they are going through .

is all there fault.



musin

long live the kktc

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/10/2008 20:29

ROBnJO: "Please don't 'tar' all Brits the same."



If you had been expelled from your family lands and property by force of arms then found some foreign immigrant squatting on it, you would possibly find it very difficult not to tar all Brits the same.

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
15/10/2008 20:56

PTEPIKE,

Are you not getting fed up with writing the same words as i and probably many others are of reading them,try a different slant on your usual dialogue,

TRY." banging your head up against a brick wall " "talk to the hand cos the face aint listening" and "beware of Greeks not bearing gifts"



Dont need a history lesson,read the book, seen the film ,lifes too short !



Dont you sometimes think you are pi**ing in the wind.



Anyway all the land was made by someones GOD so who stole what from who and who sold theirs to whoever,who cares ,it was all before my time and yours !!!!

ALLEGEDLY......

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/10/2008 01:29

bachelibelly,



What you mean is you don't like hearing certain uncomfortable truths. You don't know me from Adam. I have friends on this forum who have chosen to do something I wouldn't have done, but are upfront and open about it and willing to face the music. No problem. But when someone says something ridiculous or deserving of a response, almost as if in denial at what they have done, I'm not slow at coming forward. Live with it.

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
16/10/2008 10:49

PtePike,

Big fan of "2 sides to every story"as debate entails many different opinions regarding the same event with freedom of choice to the individual as to which version they adopt.

But varying messages get the same tunneled response from you,nine times out of ten to the detriment of the post and the poster,IMO..



I have to add that your statement "almost in denial at what they have done " ,..would fit very nice into a GC Trojan horse...



Of course only in the interest of balanced debate !

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/10/2008 10:57

musin

you have me very wrong.

where i was coming for is that lots of brits feel strongly in support of one side or the other. i listen to both sides arguements. i don't just agree with the tc side just because i live here.



i don't think i am above my station or anyone else.



how would the uk be if we kept harking on about the germans in the last war?

we don't , we have moved on and have a good relationship with germany!



it would be possible for cyprus to move on if only both sides would show a little understanding and forgiveness to each other. after all it is 2008!

all outsiders should not take sides and stay right out of it. it is for the cypriot people to decide!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
16/10/2008 14:41

pp re 98



If you are suggesting that not one single donum of previously owned Turkish land in SC has ever been appropriated or developed for gain by GC's,...



you are a fantasist!





rob

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 00:02

Again absolute load of rubbish Suzanne. Both communities have failed to deal with this issue so far. Don't you think that if it was possible for TC's to sell their land in the south , nearly all would have done so? This is the reason why many are taking their case to the ECHR. From the GC viewpoint only 300 cases have been agreed on by the property complaints commission. Some settlements have occurred through the ECHR, BUT TC's have not been able to sell their land in the South.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 10:18

bradus

from what i understand the tc's can go and live in the south for 6 months and put claim to their land and get it back, if they follow the guidelines so to speak. many have like one of my neighbours.

the eu court has now said it wanted the gc's to put claims into the trnc property commission and not to them.

many gc's don't want to do this as the payout offered by the trnc is very low. so it has put a lot of them off doing it.



as i see it there is a framework where by both sides can reclaim their property.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 10:35

Fire starter.... do you think this residency rule (6 months living amongst your former enemies) is anything more than a means to make sure it does not happen on any meaningful scale? Coz I don't.....



What is the purpose of this rule? Why does it make somebody's case any more meaningful?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 12:36

A decision is to be announced in December.



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 13:27

RobnJo: "If you are suggesting that not one single donum of previously owned Turkish land in SC has ever been appropriated or developed for gain by GC's.."



No, I'm not suggesting that. But now you mention it, did you know it's a criminal offence in the south to flog TC property - and people have gone to jail for it?



Remind me what happens to refugee property in the north.

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 13:34

Phafos have just given the go ahead to build a new ampitheatre on Turkish LAND

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 13:46

Groucho: "...do you think this residency rule (6 months living amongst your former enemies) is anything more than a means to make sure it does not happen on any meaningful scale? Coz I don't....."



First off, you are completely out of touch if you think the majority of ordinary TCs consider the majority of ordinary GCs their "former enemies". EOKA, politicians, generals maybe, but not the people. Only extremists and chauvanists are like that, but they are in the minority and are as out of touch as some expats.



Secondly, it is a common legal process all over the world for a qualifying period of residency to apply. Among other reasons this avoids administrative chaos, as I suspect you know very well.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 13:47

gillken,



The theatre issue was being discussed on two separate threads yesterday. Do you have any particular take or observations to make?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 14:09

What I don't understand is why should a TC have to abide by this so called residency rule when they are already legals from Cyprus.

Just because the have not lived there for the last 34 years surely they are still Cyprus residents.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 15:43

yes i agree turtle.

i think the point is that it is not easy for either the tc's or the gc's to reclaim their property on either side of the island.

if it were me and my property i would think 6 months is a very short time and do the paperwork and reclaim it. then from there you would have the chance to sell it, if you wanted to.

remember lots and lots of tc's do live and work in the south.



we visit the south weekly, we take our tc friends with us, only once did we have a problem and it was with a gc customs officer.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 15:55

Pike



"Secondly, it is a common legal process all over the world for a qualifying period of residency to apply. Among other reasons this avoids administrative chaos, as I suspect you know very well. "



You are right, I do know the rule applies to foreigners the world over....



But for people who were born here, have lived here all their lives and have lands they left in the south why should they have to live in a particular place (i.e south of the border) to qualify?



As for living with the enemy... well once it gets around that they have moved south to reclaim their lands how long do you think they would be treated like a long-lost friend? You really are a fantasist....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 16:41

Groucho,



ID checks, verifications, interviews and issuing of social security numbers, documents and so on can take several weeks in any country. Do you really think the GC authorities are in any position to do this in the north? Residency is the law and the only way, though as Firestarter said, it's an insult than any Cypriot in their own country should have to go through these indignities.



Groucho said: "As for living with the enemy... well once it gets around that they have moved south to reclaim their lands how long do you think they would be treated like a long-lost friend?



What do you mean? That TCs moving south can expect be attacked or intimidated in some way? Who on earth tells you this stuff? It sure ain't TCs who actually live in the south. Don't you think the GC police are under orders to crack down hard on anyone who would dare bully a TC? Whose the real fantasist? To be honest I thought it was only the Efes-addicted buffoon who was delusional, not you.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 19:43

groucho

we t/cs have been bullied ,pushed, intimitated,attacked and killed since the 50s

why do you think we are where we are .

my parents had to flee there beloved country for those reasons .

forgive ,yes forget never.



long live the kktc



musin.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:02

Firestarter,



"if it were me and my property i would think 6 months is a very short time and do the paperwork"



Problem is you live there for 6 months and only then can you complete the administrative paper work. Then the wait begins. Many of the cases before the ECHR are due to nothing happening and TC's being given the run around.



Lets not pretend the GC's have devised a fair and moral way of addressing this issue because they are simply using back door methods to prevent returning property to the TC's. I do not justify the actions of the TRNC in selling GC property. But oh the hypocrisy!



Lets hope there is a solution for both sides.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:08

Any updates on the Orams case by the way.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:09

Pike "No, I'm not suggesting that. But now you mention it, did you know it's a criminal offence in the south to flog TC property - and people have gone to jail for it?





http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=24966&archive=1



That dose not apply to the GC Government then?

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:17

Whoops! Just noticed a spelling error. I hang my head in shame.



(like hell)

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:28

bradus: "...because they are simply using back door methods..."



That's why it's called "Greek".

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:33

bradus,



Why do you think there was an outcry about it? Politicians will try anything. But the fact still remains it's illegal to do it and people have been jailed - some recently. Not like in the north, eh?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:41

musin: "...we t/cs have been bullied ,pushed, intimitated,attacked and killed since the 50s

why do you think we are where we are .

my parents had to flee there beloved country for those reasons .

forgive ,yes forget never."



Here we go again. You grew up in London and have spent all of your life there - more than 50 years - and you try on this victimhood stuff. What were the incidents of bullying, pushing, attacking and killing which forced your parents to "flee" as you describe? Who can vouch for this being the case? Because most Cypriots who came to Britain in the 1950s were simply economic migrants with British passports seeking a better life.





ps , once again a highly emotive response from you , can you not understand that some people genuinely had to move their families to ensure safety for themselves and their families , to question musin's statement about his parents reasons for their move to gb is highly insulting , try and be a little more sensative to other people's feelings or i will no other choice but to remove your postings without further warnings ======== moderator

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:48

Any update on the orams case anyone.

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 21:51

I think the decision is on or around the 20th December.



Cooper

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 22:04

pikey



your full off bullshit so go f..k yourself,from a turkish cypriot living in london



why don,t you go back to scotland if you think the turks are so bad and tell them about scottish history ,or make something up for them like you do on this forum about the turkish .

or go the south and lick their a...s,you will get some browney points.



musin

long live the kktc



ps , whilst i can understand your reaction , your choice of suggestive language needs to be addressed ======== moderator

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/10/2008 22:21

Thanks Cooper,

Paul

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 03:12

Very interesting coments upon some very delicate and emotive nationalistic, property title and of course money issues.

History is has many istances of displaced peoples and indeed civilisations . the causes are often religous, political and economic. Very few have been resolved amicably but most have indeed been resolved. The re-unification of Germany and indeed the fall of the soviet Union are examples that have evolved and continue to make civilised progress.



In Cyprus ther are clearly emotive and live issues that could be resolved with time, negotiation and money.

Time, without doubt, will lessen the desire and need for refugees to return to their original lands and property ( there will be exceptions). Nationalistic opinions present significant issues. Turkish OR Greek opinions could with time become Cypriot and the focus should become Island based. This is unlikely in the short term because there is clear deep running feelings of distrust. Political and democtratic . TBC

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 03:20

Cont.

talks could eventually diminish the nationalistic and seperative views of many.



Money.. With time i imagine that very many of the displaced peoples would except compensation in the form of finnancial settlement for their loss.

It is likely that most displaced persons are not significantly deprived as the status quo has give the vast majority exchange land and property.

Almost all will have developed their given lot to maximise their advantage.

The capitalistic economic strucure in North and South is evident and stabilisation of both sides is increasingly evident and progressing to at least economic reunification.



Total reunification ...well not yet but some day...probable

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 07:27

Warren,



There is nothing new in what you say and as the saying goes there is nothing new under the sun...



Pike would have us all believe that the Greek Cypriots are the injured party and they want their lands in the north back and don't want compensation... but I think this view is both jaded and impractical now.. Jaded because the stance on compensation is probably one of amount rather than principle... If the majority of land owners who had to move to the south were offered enough/handsome compensation they'd snatch your hand off and hang the principle...



Of course there are always exceptions, the odd person with an emotional tie to a land they left behind who no amount of compensation would satisfy... but it is my feeling that they are in the minority in holding this view... The others talk a lot of bluster but given the right offer I'm pretty sure they'd give up their claim and settle... if the ROC government and others would let them... The distrust comes with the money.

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 11:50

as i understand it switzerland and austria have different nationalities and languages in their own regions without borders or barriers and they get along even retaining their own ways and cultures. i am aware cyprus is historically different and no two cases are the same but maybe something could be learnt from the similarities? or is it just me that thinks that way and shall i keep my nose out?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 11:53

msge 132 Good post Groucho



Just to add to your post



There will indeed be some people with a very strong emotional tie to their land, that is true. If indeed it is an elder, which it is likely to be, then their offspring might also be compelled to join in order to hold the family bond.



There will be those where the lost land is prime retail, and as such would be expecting a substantial compensation should they not be able to return.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 11:55

msge 130



Hi Warren

Agree with most of what you say. I Certainly agree with your comments about the passing of time and the development of trust. My comments to add to yours would be:



I agree with your reasons for displacements. For political I would add power, which is what politics is often about. I think there are still allot of unresolved displaced issues around the world still awaiting resolution. One that will probably never be resolved, but is ongoing, is the Sudetenland where three million people are trying to claim from the Czech government.



You are right Germany achieved reunification, although I don’t see the German situation the same as Cyprus.

Germany was always a united country where the people fought and died together through a number of wars.



Things have indeed progressed since the fall of the Soviet Union. The fall of Yugoslavia as part of that break up certainly was bloody. The Serbia Kosovo situation seems calm at present, let’s hope it stays

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 11:56

part 2



way. Be interesting to see what happens in the Ukraine, 17 million Russians live there and want to be reunited with Russia. Recently there were some riots in Sebastopol. Let’s hope that gets sorted. Not to mention Georgia.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 11:58

ILC



The same goes for TCs not able to return to the south... a lot of people from Limassol, Paphos and Ayia Napa around us... they don't want to go back but they do want peace and justice...



GCs and Pike just appear to want it all..... which is nice....

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 12:03

msge 133



Hi redsnapper



Austria and Switzerland have borders, they speak the same language (Germanic), although the dialects are probably different.



You may be thinking directly of Switzerland. Switzerland is one country but has four different regions, speaking four different languages - French, German, Romanish and Italien.

Switzerland is probaly the most democratic country in the world. If 5% of the population decide they are unhappy with an issue, then the whole of the countries population is called to vote on that isse.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 13:23

ilc,



English is a Germanic language as well.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 14:01

Aren't you a clever one....

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 16:05

re: earlier postings and an acceptable treaty with south cyprus





hittite too appears to be a germanic/indo-european language



although roundly defeated at the battle of kadesh by ramses II



(not really!)



(propaganda aside, the pharoh couldn't break through to their homeland



in central anatolia, and eventually signed history's very first peace treaty)





one line in their adopted cuniform script found on a clay tablet at ayahutta



is thought to mean " now give him bread and water":



which includes the words



"nu" equivalent to now in germanic,



and "voda" corresponding to water in indo-european





andre

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 16:30

Suzanne and or Pike



Are there any statistics showing how many TCs have managed to reclaim their lands in the south by this process?



Suzanne, you mention a couple of people...



You and Pike present a picture of harmonious mixed communities which would be nice if it was true... however a "token" TC is substantially different to a large-scale repatriation which I feel might bring to the fore more polarised feelings of suspicion and distrust which may lead to further inter-communal strife...



Even in the UK, large numbers of "different" ethnic groups moving into some city areas has been shown to bring about communal tensions... to deny this is, at best, self-deluding and at worst mendacious.



So how do you see a future island living in harmony... all mixed in?



Or in separate communities... as I think, even the most hopeful and realistic political analyst would in truth believe to be a best case scenario....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 21:08

Musin: "pikey your full off bullshit so go f..k yourself,from a turkish cypriot living in london why don,t you go back to scotland if you think the turks are so bad and tell them about scottish history ,or make something up for them like you do on this forum about the turkish . or go the south and lick their a...s,you will get some browney points.



You only show you've lost the argument if all you can do is shout obsecenities at another member. Why don't I go back to Scotland? That's where I am right now - another wrong assumption from you. I could equally ask you why don't you go to the TRNC instead of shouting from London. It does you no favours with Turkish Cypriots who actually live in Cyprus. For all you know I've spent more time in Cyprus than you have. You being a builder, I would have thought the building boom would have attracted you to the island, even if you didn't want to share the struggles of life with TCs who live there.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 21:15

andre: "...and "voda" corresponding to water in indo-european..."



Bang on. In Slovenia and other former Yugoslav republics water is "voda". Although Slavs, the people have Celtic and Illyrian roots. No ethnic hatred in this fine country either - my house was renovated by Bosnian Muslims, my neighbours are Croatian and Slovenian and there are Serbs in the village. Lovely place on the sunny side of the Alps.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 21:17

And my electrician was a Montenegran!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 21:48

re message 145



not exactly what I meant...

the hittites from anatolia and rameses II's egyptian empire

were cultures as different from each other as you could possibly get

but after a series of dreadful confrontations both came to accept

the sensible compromise of each enjoying their exclusive area of control

a sort of bizonalism as it were, and their hatred and bitterness eased



you can best descibe this a macro-deal compared to the micro-dealings

over individual property squabbles, such as the orams case hereabove



thirteen years later pharoah married the daughter of the hittite price

the no doubt very charming girl they renamed uret-ma-a neferu-ra

catch her wearing a headscarf and shouting "naff-off" to photojournalists



history is unfortunately littered with peace deals that turned out badly

eg the 1938 munich agreement, the 1939 molotov-ribbentropp pact

the 1953 korean armistice, the 1974 vietnam accords,

and of course the 1960 cyprus constitution

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 21:59

pike



how did you get too scotland ,was it in your superman outfit ,did you find a phone box clark.

lost the argument ,sorry my peoples plight goes way beyond your personal attacks ,your pro greek standpoint,your biased perspective of turkish people.

personally i think turkish people in cyprus should be made aware of your angle .and you should be taken off this bb,i see you as living in a fantasy world ,some of your postings are so far fetched they could of been written

by a five year old,you know sweet f..k about turkish people ,only what you read.

who are you today pikey rambo ,have you told off some turkish guy recently or maybe got them in a headlock.



musin

long live the kktc

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:13

Free speech and debate at its best - Musin M ' you should be taken off this bb'



Words fail me. If this bb is just a pat on the back to TRNC lovers that is ok but please open your closed mind a smidgen to accept a few facts and different opinions.



Musin, as a North London TC please answer this question over 'exchange' land. What percentage of land in south Cyprus was owned by TC prior to partition i.e. what percentage was available for 'exchange'. - 1%, 3%, 25%?



Give the man a cigar, it was 3% in the south. Not much to exchange with 95% owned GC land in north Cyprus even if they agreed. Has nobody calculated that the exchange does not equate mathematically. Purely and simple it is stolen land. To the winner the spoils.



Just to let you know again - the Oram case is regarding EU jurisdiction and nothing to do with property ownership.



The above is probably beyond your understanding Musin bey

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:21

Namus,



I think you will find that the per square kilometre should be 30/70 but the current TRNC footprint is 38% of the island. Even the Greek Cypriots admit to this. The numbers of TC to GCs at the last count before 1974 may have been 3%... that's what happens when you drive people away...



Pike would have it that they all ended up in London as economic migrants but that belies the fact that they were often given ilttle choice if they wanted to protect and provide for their families....

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:22

musin,





it cannot be right to exclude the literary artiste latterly known as pike



since his language is usually moderate and he is one alternative voice



from the other side of the green line as it were, or call it devil's advocate





the british much enjoyed listening to "lord haw-haw" on radio hamburg



winding them up in the second world war and thought it funny and sad



lord haw-haw's carerfully selection of "facts" was similar to pike's:



he'd announce that the clock on so-and-so villiage church had stopped,



and indeed it had...supposed to scare our side into giving up or what?





andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:32

namus

free speach



now what part of that do you not comprehend.



i know my history, now mr namuslu please refrain from calling it stolen land ,

and i don,t smoke thanks so give the cigar too yourself.

someone who is lost for words ,has said too much already.



you did specify free speech did you not .



musin

a turkish cypriot in london

long live the kktc

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:39

namuslu bey

are you questioning the legality of kuzey kibris.







musin

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 22:53

why don,t you ask suzanne and let us all know.







we await your reply in anticipation



musin

turkish cypriot in london

long live the kktc

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/10/2008 23:16

who is insulting you suzanne ,you live on the south so you can inform us .

why else would you post such a statement.





musin

long live the kktc

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 01:43

Yes, there certainly are several current seperatist and nationalistic issues across particularly Europe and the old Soviet union.



However the Cyprus issue which could be said to be between nationalistic Greeks and nationlistic Turks is somewhat unique.

Both factions are enclaved on an Island and somewhat seperated from mother government. This is evident in the nature of the Island Governments that are republic in status.

In such a situation it is very possible and posibly advantageous that Cyprus, as an island population becomes increasingly independant, increasingly unified and increasingly prosperous. A win win scenario culminating in Cypriot nationalism, pride and independance.

Without doubt a unified and proud population all pulling on the Cypriot rope would lead to benefits and prosperity for the whole Island.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 07:37

Andre



"the british much enjoyed listening to "lord haw-haw" on radio hamburg

winding them up in the second world war and thought it funny and sad

lord haw-haw's carerfully selection of "facts" was similar to pike's: "



Even I don't wish the fate suffered by Lord Haw Haw on Pike... you do know he was executed as a traitor.....



Pike is very selective in his posts and will never answer direct questions that would require him report on the unpalatable behaviour of GCs in the period leading up to 1974.... I wonder why that is?



He answers questions with questions that take the subject off on a tangent to where he most comfortable... repeating pro GC cant.



There are those enlightened GCs who are now realising that they will eventually have to own up to have taught a very noe-sided version of events in their schools and beyond.. This they now realised has ill-served them as their youth is not able to reconcile what they have been taught with the awful truth.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 11:14

musin: "who are you today pikey rambo ,have you told off some turkish guy recently or maybe got them in a headlock."



Hmm...maybe you did visit Cyprus once...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 11:43

Groucho: "Pike is very selective in his posts and will never answer direct questions that would require him report on the unpalatable behaviour of GCs in the period leading up to 1974.... I wonder why that is?"



I don't mind you taking the pro-Turkish stance against a neutrallike me, but don't tell untruths on a public forum and thereby misrepresent me. It does nothing for your credibility. I have said on many occasions and on forums dating back some five years that Greek Cypriots were equally responsible for atrocties as far back the 1950s. They also abused their majority position to bully Turkish Cypriots and deny them equal rights. You can post an apology later, if you happen to be at church.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 12:36

Pike "I have said on many occasions and on forums dating back some five years that Greek Cypriots were equally responsible for atrocties as far back the 1950s. They also abused their majority position to bully Turkish Cypriots and deny them equal rights."



So why are we not aware of this lack of bias?



I know it's because whenever you talk about people being forced off their lands, do you conveniently forget to mention the facts you have admitted to above 99% of the time? It's a bit of an oversight.



For balance each time you talk about GCs being asked to move at the point of a gun why don't you mention the exact same thing happended to Turkish Cypriots?



You also hasten to characterise the movement of people to the south as "ethnic cleansing" but you choose not to do this when you do mention Greek Cypriot actions.... why is this?



You claim neutrality without demonstrating it....



I don't apologise as I have not misrepresented your bias, it's there for all to see.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 13:00

"a neutral like me"



Sorry but you come across as being as neutral as one of Mugabe's Security Forces!



Given the knowledge you have on Cyprus it is sad to see you post such one sided views. Rarely have I ever, on whatever forums i have visited, heard you refer to the pre 74 situation in Cyprus and the actons of the GC's during this time.



It was refreshing and unexpected for you to admit that the GC's were responsible for some of the atrocities also. Look forward to seeing more evidence of this approach in the future.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 13:07

bradus,



You don't know me or the first thing about me, but I'm glad I left you feeling "refreshed".

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
26/10/2008 13:12

Hi Pike,



You just need to chill out and instead of getting at Wyn, sit down and enjoy a nice cool Mythos and some taramasalata.



Sue