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Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 21:53

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Message 1 of 89 in Discussion

85 percent of the budget goes to 32,000 civil servants and retirees. This needs to be reduced. With such a bulky state structure, it is impossible to maintain the economy. Politicians should consider paying the price of the economic package. Turkish Ambassador to the TRNC



Read more and the heated response



http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=there-is-another-actor-in-cyprus-from-now-on-turcocypriots-2011-05-06



Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 21:59

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Message 2 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 1

Its all been sorted, TRNC have banned all foreign imports of sliced bread and pig products, that should do the trick!



Richard



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 22:19

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Message 3 of 89 in Discussion

lol ...



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 22:23

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Message 4 of 89 in Discussion

Hector,



Whichever way you look at it,one thing is for certain.There are far too many people employed to

carry out to few jobs,too many civil servants,"swinging the lead".Its not just a case of pruning the

bushes,more like felling the trees.Books have to balance,Turkey now want something back,for all

millions they put in,



Paul.



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 22:29

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Message 5 of 89 in Discussion

Paul, thought you were talking about the UK then !



Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
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Message Posted:
07/05/2011 22:47

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Message 6 of 89 in Discussion

TRNC could resort to the ROC trick of trying to impose retrospective rent to the UK sovereign military bases, claiming revenues from the previous 37 years of annual bail out as rent in lieu of all Turkish Army occupied land!



Richard



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:19

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Message 7 of 89 in Discussion

Lol Tats,



Paul.



ay-yaz


Joined: 02/04/2011
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:23

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Message 8 of 89 in Discussion



hi to everyone,

Before to making analysing about cyprus problem i advise you to learn when it started and how it continoued up to now.

I want to remind you that before 74 when British empire finished the cooper mines and decided to leave the island ,started to authenticate people to be divided in two different nations ,so they started to fight with each other,on the other hand nobody questioned about the existance of the bases!!!

But,I can say shortly Turkish Cypriots had to fight for their survive,because they were alone till they persuaded Turkey for help.(1923-1959).



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:27

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Message 9 of 89 in Discussion

The words can of worms spring to mind.Thanks for the post ay-yaz,



Paul.



Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:29

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Message 10 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 8

Divide & Rule?!



Richard



newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:41

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Message 11 of 89 in Discussion

The owners of the copper mines were American.



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:42

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Message 12 of 89 in Discussion

and what is your suggestion for all these so called >> far too many people employed to



carry out to few jobs,too many civil servants,"swinging the lead"<<



Either come up with some sort of suggestion or perhaps find yourselves something else to keep accupied with!Lets face it,it's got to be better then going around circles all the time!!



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:46

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Message 13 of 89 in Discussion

Maybe they could clean up all the shite from all the so called beautiful beaches Yorg.What suggestions do you have,



Paul.



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
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Message Posted:
07/05/2011 23:53

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Message 14 of 89 in Discussion

Theres an old saying that states a fair days work,for a fair days pay.As long as its jobs for the boys in Northern Cyprus,then the country will never be able to stand on its own two feet.You ask what suggestions would i put forward.How about agriculture,crops etc.I agree that more money would be needed to achieve this.But sureley if something was coming back in return for the investment,then it would be a win,win situation,



Paul.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 02:56

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Message 15 of 89 in Discussion

When you partition an island, rule one half of it and control the economy then you're responsible for the people there. As any TC or person who understands Cyprus will tell you.



IbrahimAbi


Joined: 24/10/2010
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 09:29

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Message 16 of 89 in Discussion

Maybe being content with 12 months wages for 12 months work (?) would be a good start for the TRNC economy



Tango1


Joined: 19/02/2011
Posts: 1151

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 09:35

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Message 17 of 89 in Discussion

When you look at the size of all the new Municipal buildings being built and then you compare the number of people in this end of the island and then again compare it with any middle sized city or even large town in the UK, it really is pathetic how grandiose it all is.



When you next go to the Metehan crossing, glance out at the ultra-modern glass building by the side of the road. This is the new Municiapal offices for Gonyelli...............it's just a tiny suburb of Lefkosa for heavens sake.



Tango1



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 10:08

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Message 18 of 89 in Discussion

Tango1/Msg 17:



D'you mean the one that's TRNC's [modern!] answer to 'The Leaning Tower of Pisa'?



I bet those office 'workers' inside kneel facing east a coupla three times every day and pray that the construction company didn't skimp on the reinforcing rods!



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 17:23

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Message 19 of 89 in Discussion

"Maybe being content with 12 months wages for 12 months work"



So called 'motherland' should have thought about that before starting it.





Any usefull suggestions anyone?????..........otherwise it is a lovely day out there!!!!!!!



mozgor



Joined: 16/06/2010
Posts: 256

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 17:33

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Message 20 of 89 in Discussion

In my opinion 85% of funding being spent in the public sector is disprortionately high and it is unsustainable. Some question what would happen to those employees should they cut back, in any society you cut when when things are tight so why not in TRNC. It wouldn't even be so bad if you were getting value for money with the local government eg it was very efficient and well run and all residents were reaping the benefits, but that's so far from the truth it's laughable. It seems to me that it's a case of jobs for the boys and nothing else and if they don't wake up and smell the coffee soon, there will no longer be any jobs anyway, look what happened to KTHY you would think that that would give them a clue to the repercussions of bad management!!!



suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 17:45

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Message 21 of 89 in Discussion

Shouldn't we just mind our own business?



We are, after all, only guests here?



Not a lot of point to all this as we are never going to be allowed to vote are we?



As Yorgo says,,,,,,,,its a lovely day out there



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 17:50

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Message 22 of 89 in Discussion

mozgor;

I 100% agree with your comments,however,it is easy said then done.-+ half of Turkish Cypriots work for the government (I know),since it is seen as an inheritance to good retirement and only takes 'who you know' to get it.

What alternatives are there,should some of these civil servants be made redundant?....bearing in mind of the amount of 'mainlanders' here,at the same time,which have mostly been BROUGHT over(by orders) for a simple vote by being made citizens over night.



ps.Please don't come with silly suggestions ,like 'they could clean up all the shite from all the so called beautiful beaches'.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 22:42

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Message 23 of 89 in Discussion

ps.Please don't come with silly suggestions ,like 'they could clean up all the shite from all the so called beautiful beaches'.



This is a very humble and sincere question - who should, then?



Should Turkey send over a coupla three platoons of 'cleaning squaddies'?



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
Posts: 690

Message Posted:
08/05/2011 23:53

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Message 24 of 89 in Discussion

Yorg, If your factory is producing cars and they are not selling then you must lay off some workers. The factory does NOT owe its labour-force a living. Normally, those who have worked the longest are the last to leave/be fired.

If you can't afford butter then you must change to margarine!

Likewise, if your government is top heavy with civil servants and their wages bill is crippling the economy, then the excess MUST be trimmed or the whole government/country will go bankrupt. The government do not owe their excess labour-force a living ! Like the rest of the world, cuts in civil service spending are a necessity for the benefit of the rest of the population.Those forced out of a job must do what the rest of the population has to do. Look for another job ! Maybe the government might start introducing training schemes to get those without a job, back on their feet.?The enterprising, as I'm sure that you were, will always find work. Nepotism in government is rife here it must be stoppe



paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 00:54

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Message 25 of 89 in Discussion

Too many people doing too little work = bankruptcy.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 01:13

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Message 26 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 25,

Under international law, a foreign country occupying part of a sovereign nation has legal and social responsibility for the citizens in the territory it controls. This is a truism that would never occur to many of the outsiders who only came to exploit the political situation.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 01:40

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Message 27 of 89 in Discussion

You guys are chasing your tails again. The situation is very simple. For decades UBP has been in power. For their loyalty to Turkey, they were financed to bribe their supporters with Civil Service jobs as well as pensions for Mucahids as young as 35 years old. They applied tripled time for the service period if it was served in war time. Consequently you had 35 year olds retiring with a pension. All this went on for years in order to keep the Turkish Cypriots on board for Turkey with the full knowledge and support of the Turkish Embassy. Turkey cannot now turn around and change the rules of the game. Either she pays up or she gets out. Either way would suit most of the Turkish Cypriots.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 01:46

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Message 28 of 89 in Discussion

The Denktas years.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 01:52

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Message 29 of 89 in Discussion

Birdman, if your shop keeper mentality was applied, the US being over 200 trillion in debt should be shut down by now. Countries do not work on the same basis. In fact most of the EU countries would also be in a same boat - a slow boat to China as it were!



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 05:55

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Message 30 of 89 in Discussion

Yfred I hear what you are saying, I really do, but surely there has to be ways forward that are better for both TC and Turkey than just 'pay up or get out'.



Regardless of who got us into this position, it is not a good position to be in. Not for TC and not for Turkey. This over dependance on Turkish subsidy , even though it was supported by turkey and created by turkey is a blight on TC. Surely a beter way forward is for both parties to recognise that what was done in the past is no longer in either parties best interests and to work togeather to rectify this problem, with each recognising their parts in having created it ? Just saying 'you made us dependant on your subsides and thus you must either continue them indefinately or piss off' is not the best we can do is it. Even if Turkey took the 'pay up' option it would still be a disataster for TC as far as I can see just maybe drawn out more.



Just my thoughts at 6am in the morning.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 07:23

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Message 31 of 89 in Discussion

TRNC could be very agriculturally productive if there was enough water to allow it to be. If Turkey are building this huge canal, at goodness knows what end cost, then surely Turkey could be magnaminous enough to string a coupla three pipelines between Cyprus and the mainland and build the infrastructure necessary to reticulate the supplied water. If I were a TC top-brass politician, who actually cared about his own people and TRNC's future prosperity, instead of only his own, I would be badgering Mr. Gul at every opportunity.



It appears to be a fact that mainlanders now outnumber TC's, so now Turkey has all but realised her previously obvious expansionist aims and now needs to demonstrate responsibility for her actions. Expedite the implementation of the pipeline immediately to show good faith, which, from the TC's I've spoken to is demonstrably lacking. Turkey needs to restore 'goodwill' towards TC's, otherwise TC's might rightly assume that they are sandwiched between two



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 07:31

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Message 32 of 89 in Discussion

Many TC beleive it to be a fact that they are outnumbered by Turkish mainlanders. I am not one of them. Its possible but I do not know how it can be considered a known fact, there simply is not enough credible hard evidence from enough sources. You also have to be clear who is being counted and who is not, like are you including Turkish miltary personel. Turkish mainladners with TRNC citizenship or thowe with it and those without it. If they are or are not numericaly dominant they are not as far as I can see politicaly or economicaly dominant. Yes Turkey has to help TRNC transition from models that may have been approriate in the wake of 1974 to ones that are appropiate today and in the mutal long term best interests of both TC and Turkey. But for that to happen TC have to recognise the need for change and offer Turkey more than just 'pay up or get out' in my view.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 07:33

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Message 33 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 31/ Cont'd:



aggressors. Massive civil unrest could be the result.



As I've pointed out in previous posts: what on earth are all these schoolchildren going to do to make a living in an embargoed state, what with the construction and real estate and tourism industries at almost a standstill?



They can't all become nightclub 'patrons', or croupiers, can they?



Or, many be supported by parents who have already consolidated their wealth. That wealth will soon be terminally eroded if too many family members are relying on it for their own living expenses!



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
Posts: 690

Message Posted:
09/05/2011 10:33

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Message 34 of 89 in Discussion

erolz

re post 30. and 32

a sound post, well thought out. I agree entirely.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 10:44

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Message 35 of 89 in Discussion

yfred, re my "shopkeeper mentality" !

surely you are not comparing TRNC with the USA, what sort of mentality is that ?



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 11:43

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Message 36 of 89 in Discussion

sorry to but in birdman and yfred but I think he is pointing out that countries do not run their finances in the same way a 'household' does. A household seeks to balance expenditure with income. Nations actualy borrow for the benfit of current generations against the incomes of future generations. This is true of almost all nations world wide as I undersand it.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 22:23

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Message 37 of 89 in Discussion

erolz,

once again I agree with you, the operative word being "NATIONS".

Greece have tried just that and look where it has put them ?

Small countries like the TRNC will never have the workforce to repay todays loans and therefore MUST trim the excessive workforce it employs to run such a small country.

850 civil servants ran the British Empire ! ( when we had one! - LOL )



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 23:30

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Message 38 of 89 in Discussion

Birdman, I say old boy, what's all this nonsense about empire and 850 Civil Servants? You forgot about how they used the minorities in those societies to oppress the majorities. Strange how everywhere your empire has touched is a flash point today or has been in the past. Isn't it what?



Erol, This is not about how to run the civil service. This is about reducing the standard of earning in TRNC to the Turkish Level. I would have no objection to that except that their living costs are a hell of a lot less than ours. The point I am making is that they created this thing and hence until the TCs are free to trade, they have no alternative but to continue with it. They should double their efforts by putting pressure on Greece and the EU to push for direct trade to improve the tourist trade in the north as well as open the trade between TRNC and Turkey. The EU and the Greeks will not budge until their interest are threatened, well I have not seen any threatening by Turkey as yet.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
09/05/2011 23:41

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Message 39 of 89 in Discussion

Regards to American Debt, thanks but no thanks. In any case who says ours is debt? What about payment for bases used to this day since 1960? In fact for the half billion they pay towards TRNC they actually spend over 10 billion in Kurdish areas. I suggest to Erdogan Pasha that there is a lot more financial benefit to solving the little local difficulty than the TRNC payments.

I would have no objection to firing Civil Servants that do not work. In fact when Talat was in power, a certain Lurucadi run Bayrak for a few years and he made all the non-workers there redundant which was half the workers and brought Bayrak into profit. I bet nobody is aware of that little episode.

What Turkey has done to KTHY and what they are about to do to Telecom and Electricity board is nothing short of criminal. The chargers for flights to Ercan is beyond belief. I now have to fly to Larnaca. I wonder if my GC cousins will put out the red carpet for me.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 00:03

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Message 40 of 89 in Discussion

YFred -

Yes 850 civil servants in Whitehall were controlling the whole Empire, that's all that were required ! (Not 30% of the population as we have here in the TRNC !)

And NO I have not forgotten how " the minorities were used to oppress the majorities "!



How much travelling have you done ?

I have traveled the world and have seen many countries the British once had colonized and although I admit they took a lot from those places, they left them in a far better condition than they were before the British arrived.

Unlike many other colonizing countries. (French/Portugal/Spane/Dutch/Belgian/Italian/Roman/Greek/German/Ottoman etc. some of whom left their colonized countries in a dreadful condition.)





" Strange how everywhere your Empire touched is a flash point today or has been in the past "



Please elucidate ? I hadn't noticed any wars in Canada or Australia or Hong Kong etc.



As for the "I say old boy " Grow up "!



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 00:45

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Message 41 of 89 in Discussion

I say old chap, play the white man. That's bad form takin the piss and all that.

As a matter of interest have you visited Palestine, or Cyprus during the troubles, or Uganda, or perhaps Srilanka, Australia? please tell me what the Brits gave any of the empire other than civil war and death and destruction.



philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
10/05/2011 00:48

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Message 42 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 41 , I am guessing



You, an English passport for one



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 00:50

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Message 43 of 89 in Discussion

Strange how you have not noticed any death in Australia, that's because they killed most of the native by throwing them over the cliff tops and locked up the rest in concentration camps. Out of sight out of mind as it were and it worked for those who have selective memory.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 00:55

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Message 44 of 89 in Discussion

philbailey, hang on a mo mate, that was earned. My ancestors paid tax to the empire. It was not free, I can assure you. I will not even begin to talk about how much tax I have paid to keep this third world country afloat. Not like you buggers who buggered off to sunnier climes.



philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 01:01

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Message 45 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 44 , check my profile not sunny



But from what I have read when a problem occured in your own country

you shot off to take full advantage

of the "empire" once you had earned enough, to returned to Cyprus



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 01:14

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Message 46 of 89 in Discussion

I see you are suffering from selective hearing as well as. I know you are going to say how the hell did I see you hearing, but did, so there.



Not at all, I was there in 63 and 67. Unless of course you consider those times trouble free, in which case I welcome to you friends' selective memory club, enjoy it.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
10/05/2011 08:56

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Message 47 of 89 in Discussion

This topic is headed: 'Spat between Turkey & TRNC heats up'



NOT 'Spat beween forum members heats up'!



This is far too interesting a thread to be arbitarily closed because of 'intercommunal bickering' - please confine the subject matter to relevance to the thread title!



I'm not a mod, never have been and never will, or want to be - it's just that I find much of the information aired most revealing. Such privileged info. can only be known by TC's and Turks!



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 22:30

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Message 48 of 89 in Discussion

Yfront,

you really are a demented juvenile. Cyprus was going along nicely until EOKA reared it's ugly head and caused the problems facing the Island today.

(I too can take the piss - try me !)



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 22:48

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Message 49 of 89 in Discussion

Birdbrain, I see you have cought the dreaded Greek Cypriot desease. It must be that lovely Greek Cypriot Villo behind you that did it.



TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
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Message Posted:
10/05/2011 23:22

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Message 50 of 89 in Discussion

Oh well Hector (mess 1)



Seems like the Spat is not just between the TRNC and Turkey



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 12:06

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Message 51 of 89 in Discussion

There is no spat, it's just a bit of banter. But when people start calling names, well one has to respond in some maner. But there is no doubt about one thing though. There are fools and there are fools, but there is nothing like an old fool. When you lose an argument, you should butt out, rather then revert to personal insults.

The claim of 805 civil servants running the emprie when 500,000 canot run UK was incredible. When in fact what they did is use millions of local people very cheaply. Enough said.



The worst insult was pretending that the Brits actually did not like eoka when in fact Brits did everything they could not to pick them up. Some even were able to excape from prison.



People have to realise that this thing called Cypprus Problem is not a Greek/Turkish thing. It is far bigger with both US and Russia's involved. It's a shame that the Brits had become the poodle of US even in the 50s.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 12:46

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Message 52 of 89 in Discussion

Oh to have the brain of a child instead of a wise "Old Owl" !



CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 13:13

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Message 53 of 89 in Discussion

I agree that with planning, investment for improvement; management and inspection of standards.



'they could clean up all the shite from all the so called beautiful beaches'.



Would indeed be a major improvement and aid attraction to the North of the Island.

Although would entail a level of arduous manual labour and people capable of such.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 14:27

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Message 54 of 89 in Discussion

Interesting thoughts here. So these johny foreigners just haven't got a clue. You are suggesting they should go clean beaches and streets. Perhaps you guys can find one of these foreign johny types and suggest this idea to them. Their response to this fantastic idea will be most interesting and perhaps even entertaining as well as educational.

Bloomin heck, I ended up on a soap box today, but I don't mind, I was due for my annual shower anyway even though I did not need one.



fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 16:01

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Message 55 of 89 in Discussion

YFred



"Either she pays up or she gets out. Either way would suit most of the Turkish Cypriots"



You are of course entitled to this opinion but could you explain to us how the TRNC would survive without Turkey pumping in 750 million dollars a year, 70% of which is spent on public sector salaries (if reports are to be believed) ?



Without Mainland money what would happen to the public sector ?

Without Mainland money how do you see much needed infrastructure improvements being funded and what would be the knock on effects to an already 'dead on its arse' tourism sector ? Unless of course you expect the EU to pick up where the Mainland left off !!



Even with the support of Mainland money, the government can't pay its bills, so how would it do so without it ??



Not after an argument, just interested in your thoughts.



Paul



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 19:59

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Message 56 of 89 in Discussion

If Turkey pulls out, then we become European. As we are the poorest of the Europeans, then as they accepted us in to Europe, then they will have to make grants available for us to survive. We could of course be left to starve, but I somehow do not think the Europeans are that selfish. I would give TRNC 5 years before they can become self sufficient.

May I remind you that in 1963, we were pushed into enclaves of 5% of the total land of Cyprus and we survived. We have done it before and we will do it again. I am not saying it is not going to be painful. But it is certainly doable.

Most of the Turkish Cypriots are land owners so Civil Service work they take on may not be their only income. In any case I am sure Turkey would love to keep some bases and so long as the price is agreed I see no problem. There is also a little matter of the British bases which for the last 50 years they have not paid a penny for. 30% of the payments will also be collected.

Cont.



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:04

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Message 57 of 89 in Discussion

There is also a little matter of payments made by the UN to the RoC since 1963 to this day for assistance to the refugees which we have not received a penny for. 30% of that money with compounded interest will be extracted from our beloved southern cousins whether they like it or not. It will be almost as pleasurable as a dentist pulling the teeth out of their worst enemy.



All this assuming that RoC will accept to remove all embargos if Turkey pulls out.



It's a big if but it can be done. Assuming that our southern cousins are genuine about wanting to see Turkey pull out. If they are not, they can get stuffed.



Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:15

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Message 58 of 89 in Discussion

YFred/msg 56/57: 'May I remind you that in 1963, we were pushed into enclaves of 5% of the total land of Cyprus and we survived. We have done it before and we will do it again. I am not saying it is not going to be painful. But it is certainly doable'



So, you don't think TC's have been so cosseted by Turkey that they are now lulled into a terminal 'spoon-fed lethargy'?



YFred


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:17

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Message 59 of 89 in Discussion

Not at all. Take away the cuffs and we shall thrive. We are hard working people. Why do you think the Greek Cypriots employ Turkish Cypriots at half wages with no insurance payments. Because they are lazy? I think not.



Zoots


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:30

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Message 60 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 55 fiendishpaul: "You are of course entitled to this opinion but could you explain to us how the TRNC would survive without Turkey pumping in 750 million dollars a year, 70% of which is spent on public sector salaries (if reports are to be believed)"

As YFred says, grants are the way forward before the TCs can stand on their own two feet. Money would come flooding in from the EU, UN USAid as soon as Turkey pulls the troops out and leaves an agreed contingent. If the Jasmine movement succeeds in its aims, Ankara will realise there's no point in continuing when the TCs themselves don't want the occupation and control. What kind of "motherland" dumps its own produce on the territory it claims to protect and prevents exports to its own market? That's the kind of stranglehold Turkey has on the Turkish Cypriots.

When a foreign country imposes a dependency on the citizens it controls, it is also responsible for looking after them. Otherwise ship out.



YFred


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:32

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Message 61 of 89 in Discussion

I should have mentioned the tax from the Turkish Cypriots working down south.

First of all the RoC would also be made to pay our workers similar wages to their own workers and all the tax and insurance collected by us. It is only fair.



fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:39

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Message 62 of 89 in Discussion

YFred



I have to admire your optimism. Nice touch - from living off handouts from Turkey, you move to living off handouts from Europe As for being self-sufficient within 5 years, a bit of a pipe dream methinks.



As to why GC's employ TC's, it is probably to do with the low wages that they pay rather than their work ethic. I have little doubt that a GC employed in the same job would expect double or treble the wages. Strangely enough, a mirror image of why TC's employ Mainlanders on this side - much to the disgust of TC's. A small case of pot/kettle ??



Paul



YFred


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:41

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Message 63 of 89 in Discussion

Thank you Zoots, you put it so elegantly.



The problem people have in general is that they see few lazy buggers around the place and everyone becomes lazy. It's human nature to judge even when they have not got a clue. My heart goes to TCs who stand by the square waiting for one days work so they can feed their family. What an insult.



YFred


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 20:45

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Message 64 of 89 in Discussion

Paul there is a minor difference. The RoC is in EU and it is a crime in the EU to practice racist wages policies. When the TRNC is in the same boat, we shall shout about their racist policies too. But while they are not recognized, then there is nothing anybody can do.



Optimism? of course I am optimist. Why would leave the land I was born on and move 2500 miles at the age 14 to have life outside of the enclaves. But I shall return, soon.



fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 21:03

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Message 65 of 89 in Discussion

Fred



You may be right, but I am unaware of what the minimum wage policy is in the RoC and whether TC workers are paid this minimum wage. Therefore it is difficult to know whether anything illegal is going on or whether TC's are just prepared to work for a lower wage, albeit probably considerably more than they would earn this side.



I think that the main problem this side is the gross ineptitude seen at all levels of the civil service and government. People who are in well paid jobs, who know that it is nigh on impossible to sack them, just don't give a toss about the level of service provided. I am afraid to say that I have seen it in every government office that I have had the misfortune to visit and before you are tempted to brush me off as a whining expat, you speak to the locals and they feel exactly the same. It is something that needs to be seriously addressed before the TRNC can move forward in a positive way.



Paul



YFred


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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 21:32

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Message 66 of 89 in Discussion

"gross ineptitude seen at all levels of the civil service and government"



There we agree. I have also seen the way the civil service works. And unless you know someone from the inside you are unlikely to achieve your goal at a reasonable time. I for instance applied for a TRNC passport on Friday morning and was delivered to me by the same day after work. Now that is service. But I am not saying that's how it is for all.



As to wages in the south, I am not talking about minimum wage, I am talking about equal pay for equal work. Why should you pay a plumber 50 pounds per day if he is a TC and 100 pounds per day if he is a GC. That is what I call racism and it exists because I know plenty of your lazy buggers who go there and work under those circumstances. The fact that they could not get that wage in the north has nothing to do with it. RoC has been racist since it's existence and we will drag it out of her one way or another.

My racist cousins in the south are in for a shock



fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
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Message Posted:
11/05/2011 22:22

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Message 67 of 89 in Discussion

Fred



I am well aware of your views as to your rasist cousins in the South



Personally, provided that the employer is meeting his legal obligations to pay a minimum wage, then I would call that economics and not racism. The fact that a GC might not do the work for that salary is really neither here nor there. Exactly the same occurs on this side with mainlanders doing work for a wage that a TC would probably not accept. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it happens all over the world - Polish plumbers in UK for example.



Anyway, time for bed as got to be up early for work - not on minimum wage



Paul



YFred


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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 00:22

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Message 68 of 89 in Discussion

Paul, you must be joking, minimum wage becasue a person is a TC, they can stuff it up whare the sun does not shine. I was under the impression that it was EU law to stop discriminate against race for wages. Unfortunately the RoC is being run lunatics till this point but EU will catch up with them sooner or later.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 02:57

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Message 69 of 89 in Discussion

If Turkey were to 'pull out' in the absense of any agreed settlement in Cyprus then the repercussions would be more than just financial.

Firstly there would be the issue of physical security. There is no reason why legaly the RoC should not impose its recognised authority over all of Cyprus by force where necessary. A dangerous possibility.

Secondly without Turkey how would the north handle flights, mail and telephone services.

I do not seen any realistic way that we could survive as an entity seperate from the RoC if Turkey were to 'go home'. We could only survive as a minority community within the ROC as it exists today and as we existed in the period 64-74. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing given the changes in the world today. What I am saying is to think we could survive as a seperate entity to the RoC without Turkey is not realistic imo.

So the call should be Turkey out, reintegrate with RoC on their terms. Not just Turkey out.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 11:57

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Message 70 of 89 in Discussion

erolz,

I must disagree with your last sentence.

The GC's do NOT want TC's in any part of Cyprus under ANY circumstances. Reintegration is NOT on THEIR agenda, to the state pre. 74, unfortunately.

Reintegration with RoC on their terms in MHO would be disastrous for the TC's as it was prior to the intervention.

IMHO The GC's will NEVER give the parity that the TC's seek in running Cyprus and therefore, for many years to come, this lovely Island is destined to be partitioned. Improvements in co-existance should be searched for and is achievable but help must be sought from wise politicians, from wherever, to achieve this.

Gerry



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 12:23

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Message 71 of 89 in Discussion

Not much to say on this thread. Most has already been said.



I will just repeat what I have previously said is that I think we Brits underestimate the entrepreneurial nature of the TC's. Yes, there are many who are conditioned by the state to become fat and robotic, however many TC's do seem like they would be willing to make a go of business.



Individual success is capability plus motivation plus opportunity. Some TC's would need training to develop business and leadership capability, the motivation is likely there, but capability and motivation means nothing without opportunity. Talent will wither if there is no opportunity to express itself. If the embargoes were lifted who knows what is possible. Lots of holidaymakers to the island would provide opportunity.



In addition, property and title laws would need to be tightened up to attract foreign investment. Certainly the TCs would need to receive funding to get itself on its feet. Fresh administration would be needed.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 12:30

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Message 72 of 89 in Discussion



Msg 69: "Secondly without Turkey how would the north handle flights, mail and telephone services."

A lot more efficiently because they would be getting expert outside help to reintegrate Cyprus communications. A welcome change from the rot of the past 37 years.



Zoots


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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 12:32

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Message 73 of 89 in Discussion

Msg 70: "The GC's do NOT want TC's in any part of Cyprus under ANY circumstances. Reintegration is NOT on THEIR agenda, to the state pre. 74, unfortunately."

And you base this bold statement on what?



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 12:45

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Message 74 of 89 in Discussion

Zoots Turkey just leaving north cyprus would not change the legal status of the TRNC under international law. Its status as a non recognised country is based on it having been created by military force. That would not change simply because Turkey left. No country would be able to offer 'outside help' with say international flights until and unless the RoC deem an airport in the North to be an offical customs port. That is the simple reality.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 13:08

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Message 75 of 89 in Discussion

Message 73

How long have the unification "TALKS" been going on now ?

Has there been ANY progress in the talks?

Do the talks not flounder when any mention of parity takes place?

What have the TC's been offered by the GC's if anything?

Do you wish the TC's to become second class citizens ?

I've only been living here for 7 years and these are the realities of life, if what I read and hear are correct.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 13:22

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Message 76 of 89 in Discussion

Birdman msg70



First off I would like to point out the difference between GC as indivduals, who have a range of different views and GC leaderships. In my experience some GC indivduals want passionately to live in a unifed Cyprus alongside TC as equals. Others do not. There can be no generalisations about them as indivduals as there can not be about TC.

As far as GC leaderships go, my personal view is that they did not mind particularly TC living in Cyprus as long as they were not a block on purely Greek / GC ambitions for the furture of Cyprus after British rule. As long as TC did not expect any say in determing their future alongs side GC there was no issue. Their leadership did not want TC wiped off the face of Cyprus, but they were determined to stop TC as a community being able to block their asiprations for enosis and in pursuit of that were more than willing and did use illegality and violence upto and including (state sponsored) murder.



Just my own personal views.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 13:36

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Message 77 of 89 in Discussion

Zoots msg73



I do not think you have any credibility to ask others on what basis they make a claim, as you do all the time, when you steadfastly refuse to show, having been asked repeatedly to do so, on what basis you made the claim



"Everyone's civil liberties are protected by the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) - apart from unfortunate foreigners in the TRNC."



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/61196.asp



just my own personal view

post 133



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
12/05/2011 15:04

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Message 78 of 89 in Discussion

erolz message 76.

Thank you for that reply. I am still learning all the twists and turns of the Cypriot people and I am sure I will never understand it all. LOL

I have personally yet to meet a GC who has had a good word to say about a TC, but I will take your more experienced word that they do exist. On the contrary however, I have NEVER met a TC who has has a bad word for a GC.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 01:23

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Message 79 of 89 in Discussion

I used to belong to a worldwide prestigious organisation and have been a member for nearly 30 years.

I have attended meetings regularly, in the UK and Germany and have even been to meetings in Thailand.

It's a charitable organization with no political or religious ties, which raises funds for local and worldwide needs.



Having attended many meetings in the South of Cyprus, I felt and heard the hatred of the GC members,(and BRIT members also !), at our regular meetings, saying that anyone living in the North of Cyprus, (TC's and Brits alike) were living in occupied territory.



This is not what Masonic membership is about worldwide, yet here in Cyprus it rears it's ugly head !

I resigned from the organisation, which is supposed to be , non religious and non political, because had I remained attending those meetings, I would not have been honoring the oath I took on initiation. (That it was a non political/religious organisation.) I love the pure principles but the GC's do



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 15:58

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Message 80 of 89 in Discussion

Erolz,

The whole thing depends on Turkey not interfering with the negotiations. So long as only Cypriots are negotiating for their best interest, it is certain that they will come to an agreement.



When it comes to security a hedghog is tiny compared to a dog, have you ever seen dog attack a hedge hog. With the number of settlers here, the Greek Cypriots would not consider attacking. Even if they did, there is no telling if what Turkey will do. The Greek Cypriot fascists have no way of knowing what Turkey intends to do. There is a possibility that this time they will come over and take the lot.



Just because a child grows up and moves out of the parent home does not mean they are no longer welcomed back in. In any case Turkey will have bases in TRNC for that purpose. It is a win win situation for everybody. We just need to throw away the current shackles and dive in to the water as it were despite the fact that it may be cold. We are in political spring. It'll be alright



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 21:37

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Message 81 of 89 in Discussion

Birdman: "Having attended many meetings in the South of Cyprus, I felt and heard the hatred of the GC members,(and BRIT members also !), at our regular meetings, saying that anyone living in the North of Cyprus, (TC's and Brits alike) were living in occupied territory."

Don't see what your problem is. I have a gaff in north Cyprus just as you do, but only a blind man or a fool would deny the place is under Turkish occupation.

"This is not what Masonic membership is about worldwide, yet here in Cyprus it rears its ugly head!"

Do the Masons forbid speaking the truth?

"I resigned from the organisation, which is supposed to be non religious and non political, because had I remained attending those meetings, I would not have been honoring the oath I took on initiation. (That it was a non political/religious organisation.) I love the pure principles but the GC's do."

Supporting the "TRNC" and (if you do) occupying a Greek Cypriot's property is HIGHLY political. Maybe you had to resign.



birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 22:12

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Message 82 of 89 in Discussion

Zoots.

I don't occupy a Greek Cypriot property, my villa was only built 4 years ago ! There was nothing on the piece of land I purchased.

As for the remainder of your ramble, as normal, you know nothing about the "Freemasons" so why make a comment?



gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
13/05/2011 22:17

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Message 83 of 89 in Discussion

Zoots,why do you assume everyone here is occupying a Greek Cypriot's property,you own a property here,is it a Greek Cypriot's property? No,so why all the bullsh*t?

The way you go on the Greek Cypriot's owned all the land on the island.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 23:10

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Message 84 of 89 in Discussion

Birdman,

Avoiding the issues isn't the best way forward.



Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 23:21

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Message 85 of 89 in Discussion

Gooligan,

No, GCs do not own all the land on the island. But figures suggest they own 80% of the north. So reputable international organisations may well take a dim view of members occupying other people's property (I say "occupying" because the Orams ruling means foreigners using GC property are mere trespassers with no legal ownership).



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 23:37

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Message 86 of 89 in Discussion

Zoots that 20% lark is pure nonsense. TCs were mainly farmers before the troubles. The deeds the RoC have been administering since 63 cannot be trusted. As the GC agreed in the past to a 25%/75% split and Denktash wanted 29%/71% split I suggest that it was something in between. But the TCs have another thing in their favour and that is the land in the south is up to 10 times more valuable than the land in the north. Now that is because of the economic suffocation of the TCs by the TRoC for the last 37 years. Talk of some people shooting themselves in the foot.



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
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Message Posted:
13/05/2011 23:46

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Message 87 of 89 in Discussion

actually according to the roc deeds office the gc,s own 132 per cent .









musin



long live the kktc



YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
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Message Posted:
14/05/2011 00:11

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Message 88 of 89 in Discussion

Now, that would be a turn p for the books as it were



gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
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Message Posted:
14/05/2011 05:36

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Message 89 of 89 in Discussion

) ) )



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