Turkish Democracy In Doubt?

Rufusa


Joined: 20/06/2011
Posts: 26

Message Posted:
21/06/2011 17:55

Good analysis on the gradual consolidation of the AKP party and the weakening of the Turkish army and judiciary:



http://www.opendemocracy.net/gareth-jenkins/turkey%E2%80%99s-election-and-democracys-shadow?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzEmail&utm_content=201210&utm_campaign=Nightly_2011-06-21%2005:30

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
21/06/2011 18:19

Erdogan will underestimate the Turkish Army at his peril

AnthonySmith


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 455

Message Posted:
21/06/2011 18:23

Arguably, the Turkish military and the "political" judiciary needed weakening. As far as I am aware, there was no public vote in favour of the army on September 12, 1980. A move towards democracy involves allowing people to vote for what they believe in, and while Erdogan has his critics, Turkey has enjoyed a modernising under his rule.

Rufusa


Joined: 20/06/2011
Posts: 26

Message Posted:
21/06/2011 20:58

The election was also a victory for the Kurds with 36 MPs elected, 11 of them women. Thanks to the strengthened Kurdish vote AKP failed to get the majority it needed to change the constitution at will.

The comments under the piece are great, especially this one:



>>It is heartening to see Leyla Zana elected and back in the parliament where 20 years ago, because she repeated the Oath in Kurdish, she was arrested and detained for 10 years in prison. Mr. Erdogan would do well to carefully read her thoughtful and fine court defences to all the charges that today she still faces. And it is time for the UK, as it hoists Turkey, via NATO, as the new Middle EAst Peace Negotiator, to remind Mr. Erdogan that he needs first to make peace in his own backyard, else Turkey will never e accepted in the EU.<<

Obviously someone who knows what they're talking about!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 09:36

message 4:



before turkey can ever be admitted to the eu, it needs to:



sort out the cyprus problem by leaving

agree autonomous zones acceptable to eu opinion-makers

open its ports to gc shipping

separate the generals from politics

impose a regime on tenders that is considered transparent

etc



a longish list ...but straightforward enough? well, not exactly



its campaign to join europe, that in reality dates back to 1959,

is already stymied by the undying hostility of the eu big boys,

france and germany:



sarkozey gave an interview in 2007 where he said membership

was "inappropriate" and merkel's recent comments were very hostile



after all, britain and turkey would soon be a larger voting bloc than

france plus germany, and that may contest leadership of the eu



opinion polls show that voters in france, germany, austria, holland etc

will never accept lots more moslem neighbours, as they would see it



...most unfortunate for those who want turkey in the eu

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 11:09

The freeing and pardon of the 68 Turkish journalists, whom are currently incarcerated, might go some way into convincing the 'First World' international community that Turkey is starting to implement democratic norms.

Rufusa


Joined: 20/06/2011
Posts: 26

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 13:13

Msg 6, I agree. Countries that lock people up for disagreeing with their opinion - esp. when it's the truth - do not belong in the civilised world. That's a big problem with Turkey and their people in power in TRNC. Everyone knows they're the bad guys but how do you make them better?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 17:45

messages 6 and 7:



I always argue that turkish moves in this or that direction

can make no difference in their hopeless quest to be accepted by the eu



the prospect of a new constitution, vociferously welcomed by the eu

may not be intended to shore up democracy as an abstract concept,

but instead serve to strengthen one group as opposed to another



one is on very trecherous ground to put some countries in the

"civilised" camp and all others in the uncivilised camp:

it assumes that the civilised never bomb civilians, aren't neo-colonial,

and always help good guys or just causes (whatever that means),

and are incorruptible



...the truth is rather less tidy I'd guess



turkey has made progress but is by no means perfect and there are problems:

but I'm not clear, are we arguing they should leave north cyprus to its fate?



well, some greek cypriot patriots and humanitarian campaigners would agree

but everyone knows you don't make countries better by preaching at 'em

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 18:02

Basically, 'andre514', the EU paymasters don't want their countries swamped with uneducated, Muslim peasants, most of whom would end up bludging off their social security - end of!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/06/2011 21:43

john,



believe it or not, I don't have any particular "view" on the question

of immigration except, I think it would have been an enriching experience

to have turkey in rather than out



as regards your use of the word "swamped", I think this well illustrates

the thinking of many in northern countries and is a supreme demonstration

that politicians in south cyprus are quite deluded to dangle the eu "carrot"



finally your use of the phrase "eu paymasters" makes me feel just a bit

nauseous when I'm reminded of all their madcap ways of using our cash

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
23/06/2011 10:47

andre514/msg 10: 'finally your use of the phrase "eu paymasters" makes me feel just a bit



nauseous when I'm reminded of all their madcap ways of using our cash'



None more so when we can all evidence what EU 'grants' [for infrastructure] to Cyprus [North & South] are spent on!



I really should apply to Bruxelles for a brand new, top of the range, fully loaded Merc!



How about you?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/06/2011 21:52

message 11 line 3:



it's a good explanation why emergent and peripheral economies want in

...another example of beauracracy is the farm subsidies racket:

it all seems logical but has a great deal to do with rural votes esp in one

or two countries



here you have a central contradiction of the eu, it looks like an expensive

free trade zone on the inside but to outsiders it is protectionist



and for all the huff and puff "it is not a state" (newsweek, autumn 2010)

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
24/06/2011 22:34

And it has, and continues to become more and more bureaucratic and top-heavy - but for how much longer can it keep subsidising and bailing out all these malingerers and cafe-societies - none of whom have, or ever did have, 'a cat in Hell's chance' of ever making the slightest reciprocal contribution, let alone repaying a single Eurocent of their ill-gotten debts?