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Would Turkey open its ports if.

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newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 15:24

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Message 1 of 41 in Discussion

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/2011/11-07-12.tcpr.html#B



The rest played ball,



Paul.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 15:31

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Message 2 of 41 in Discussion

Seems a very reasonable offer, which is bound to be thrown back in Turkeys face.



greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 17:39

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Message 3 of 41 in Discussion

I think the days of throwing things back @ Turkey could be numbered,



Grey.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 17:45

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Message 4 of 41 in Discussion

The problem is that Turkey already signed agreements to open its ports to the RoC that did not contain any conditions, like the EU making good on it's pledges to end the isolation of the TC community in Cyprus. It can and no doubt will continue to try and create 'linkage' between these issues, but it DID sign the agreements to open the prots and they do NOT have any such linkage in them.



greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 19:09

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Message 5 of 41 in Discussion

If they did open them,it would tick a lot of the boxes that the E.U. are waiting for them to fulfil,



Grey.



greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
13/07/2011 19:11

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Message 6 of 41 in Discussion

In fact it would remove seven out of the eight chapters that have been frozen,



Grey.



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 09:41

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Message 7 of 41 in Discussion

What's the eighth one, and what would it take to free it up?



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 09:53

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Message 8 of 41 in Discussion

Turkey signed the agreement at the last, urged by the UK; a codicil was added that they did not recognizes the roc. This seems to be completely ignored.



mikelapta



Joined: 20/11/2008
Posts: 2186

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 09:56

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Message 9 of 41 in Discussion

Paul,I really enjoyed all the articles in the paper.



I'm sure Turkey can do no more at this stage,by opening up Mersin or wherever to the Greeks.



And see what happens in the 3 months after that.



Surely the Greeks demands for land both West and East of TRNC is so they will have more coastal waters



and thus access to whatever is uner the seas



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 11:57

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Message 10 of 41 in Discussion

Re-mess 7,TRNC Vaughan,



I think the eigth one is to do with agriculture,and is blocked by the French.I will do some more digging,lol,



Re-mess 9,



Glad you enjoyed them Mike,



Paul.



mikelapta



Joined: 20/11/2008
Posts: 2186

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 12:02

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Message 11 of 41 in Discussion

Paul,the French are against the agricultural refoms.



I have come from Wales,and we had trouble with sheep exports to France.



I,ve never drunk French wine since !!!! Every other country has benefitted



Mike



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 12:12

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Message 12 of 41 in Discussion

"Agriculture and rural development" will continue to remain in suspense,due to obstacles imposed by France.



Troodo,mess 8,



Not sure i am understandining your post correctly.Turkey do not recognise R.O.C. and wont until embargoes on Northern Cyprus are lifted.Sorry if i have misunderstood you,



Paul.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 12:34

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Message 13 of 41 in Discussion

Mikelapta re 9



All TR's ports are open to the Greeks... you mean Cypriots, of course... don't encourage 'em ;)





the FACT is that TR signed an accord as part of joining the EU and has reneged on it - TR KNEW that the 'rump' RoC had acceded to the EU and signed, THEN started making demands..





The UN resolutions re 'TRNC' prohibit manoeuvring on this issue... the smart thing to do would have been to gain membership and then TR citizens / goods could move freely around Cyprus..



andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 12:36

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Message 14 of 41 in Discussion

message 10:



that single minor chapter blocked by france is highly significant,

...while the eight blocked by greece/cyprus are of little moment



how so?



according to the latter, turkey can still join if it leaves the island:

though the turkish government has repeated time and again that

cyprus is not negociable and I for one doubt they'll surrender it,

under any imaginable circumstances



and the eu has shown it can be quite flexible on the cyprus issue

ie the island acceeded to the eu "despite" it still being divided



yes, the cyprob is of long standing and very bitter,

yet greece/greek cypriots are basically supportive of turkey joining



but opposition from france, and germany, austria, netherlands etc

is based on the organic undying hostility of most of their voters,

as well as real fears on behalf of the eu leadership it could

even be out-voted and lose to a britain/turkey bloc on critical issues



...paradoxically, that may be why britain wants turkey "



andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 12:39

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Message 15 of 41 in Discussion

..."in" the eu and it could even apply to sweden as well

or at least their foreign minister who infuriated sarkozy last year



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 15:16

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Message 16 of 41 in Discussion

Newlad.

You are quite right, and Turkey made that clear when they signed the protocol. They were not going to sign, and the UK suggested at the last moment that a codicil was added stating that Turkey did not recognizes the roc. On this basis and this basis only, Turkey signed. How can they now accuse Turkey of failing the protocol?



greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 19:06

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Message 17 of 41 in Discussion

Havent Turkey offered this gesture before,



Grey.



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
14/07/2011 23:29

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Message 18 of 41 in Discussion

Back to top.



andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
15/07/2011 01:15

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Message 19 of 41 in Discussion

greylag,



turkey is offering "a" gesture in planning to ditch the talks,

but probably not the one you had in mind unless two fingers are involved



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 20:01

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Message 20 of 41 in Discussion

Andre,



Looks like Turkey are finally talking Turkey.Now the rest of Europe know where they stand on the matter.They cannot put it any plainer then yesterdays statement from Erdogan.All they are actually doing is what Ban ki moon has asked of them.Only 12 weeks to October,exciting times,



Paul.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 20:05

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Message 21 of 41 in Discussion

Paul



We've seen many 'train crash' deadlines past..



The problem is TURKEY signed a document and TURKEY can't go back on that without destroying the customs union in it's entirety..



EricCrapton



Joined: 30/12/2010
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 20:09

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Message 22 of 41 in Discussion

The Greek Cypriot Government are pig ignorant and full of hot air, so peoples don't hold your breaths!



Anyways, there may be some big changes on the way on the 'other' side and October is years away!



Patara29


Joined: 21/04/2010
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 20:13

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Message 23 of 41 in Discussion

What do you think?If Turkey entered Cyprus from behind would Greece help?!



EricCrapton



Joined: 30/12/2010
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 20:43

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Message 24 of 41 in Discussion

Sounds rude to me!



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 21:08

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Message 25 of 41 in Discussion

Hi Mark re- mess 21,



Point taken,but there is an old saying my friend.An eye for an eye,and a tooth for a tooth.The E.U.have hardly played ball with the people of Northern Cyprus have they.Broken promises of the lifting of embargoes spring to mind.Turkey have now drawn the line in the sand,lets see who crosses it,



Paul.



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 21:34

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Message 26 of 41 in Discussion

Paul



You know its a one way street on this subject, its all about what the ROC want and nothing more



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:04

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Message 27 of 41 in Discussion

Things have now taken a turn Tats.The ROC will soon be small fish,with Turkey swimming in a different pond,



Paul.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:11

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Message 28 of 41 in Discussion

re 25 Paul



I simply don't agree - the EU have been hamstrung by the UN Security Council Resolution in place since 1983 regarding the ( non ) status of 'TRNC'



Turkey KNEW this and signed the customs accord KNOWING that the RoC was already a member of the EU



The EU have made sure some funding gets to TCs - despite the fact that the RoC was a net contributing state - so you could say the RoC has helped fund some of the projects





TCs can and do cross the Green line and EU Citizens can so so - having entered via a non recognised port of Entry



These are things that would NEVER have happened without the EU .



re 26 Turtle



As with above - if the RoC was getting all it's own way the things pointed out above wouldn't be happening..



The KEY - as ever - is that UN resolution



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:25

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Message 29 of 41 in Discussion

MM have to disagree with you. The EU Council the primary body of the EU that sets policy made a pledge in 2006 "The Council is determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and to facilitate the reunification of Cyprus by encouraging the economic development of the Turkish Cypriot community. The Council invited the Commission to bring forward comprehensive proposals to this end, with particular emphasis on the economic integration of the island and on improving contact between the two communities and with the EU. The EU council made this pledge KNOWING the UN resolutions that existed.



The EU comission, the body designed to draft plans to implement this policy did not say 'the policy can not be implemented because of the UN resolutions'. It did in fact draft comprehensive proposals for 'direct trade', again drafted in the full knowledge of existing UN resolutions. These plans were perfect compatible with international law and UN resolutions [cont]



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:30

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Message 30 of 41 in Discussion

in its expert view. They can be seen here http://www.ktto.net/english/directtraderegulation.doc



That they have not been sucsessfuly implemented is not down to the fact that UN resolutions stop them from being implemented but down to the RoC blocking their implementation.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:38

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Message 31 of 41 in Discussion

And for the record, even though the EU Council of ministers meeting of 2006 that agreed the policy of 'determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community.....' was shortly before the RoC joined the EU, A RoC minister was there at the meeting and as a Country on the verge of entry, signed this policy document along with represntatives of all the other EU member states and soon to be member states. The EU council set the policy. The comission drew up plans to achieve the policy. The comission plans had two elements 'aid' and 'trade'. Aid was implemented, trade still has not been implemented and not because of the UN resolutions but because of blocking by the RoC. THe Comission proposals were drawn up in full knowledge of the status of the TRNC and found perfectly workable solutions to allow direct trade regardless of the staus of the TRNC as per UN resolutions. Same solutions that basically are allowing the RoC to buy electiricty from the North in fact.



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 22:58

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Message 32 of 41 in Discussion

Mark, I didn't say the RoC was getting it all its own way I said the WANT it all thier own way.



There is a difference



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 23:12

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Message 33 of 41 in Discussion

I should point out the dates in my posts 29 and 31 should be 2004 and not 2006. Sorry.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/07/2011 23:22

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Message 34 of 41 in Discussion

Just to add This is what the UN Secretary General himself said in 2004, in UN document S/2004/437



"The Turkish Cypriot vote has undone any rationale for pressuring and isolating them."



"In this context and for that purpose and not for the purpose of affording recognition or assisting secession, I would hope they can give a strong lead to all States to cooperate both bilaterally and in international bodies to eliminate unnecessary restrictions and barriers that have the effect of isolating the Turkish Cypriots and impeding their development, deeming such a move as consistent with Security Council resolutions 541 (1983) and 550 (1984)."



So I do not believe that what is stopping the EU from making good on its pledges is the UN resolution 550 (1984) as you suggest MM. The SG himslef said that eliminating barries and restrictions that have the effect of isolating TC and impeding their development was consistent with UN resolution 550.



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 08:43

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Message 35 of 41 in Discussion

Hi Mark,



Take on board your posts,but please answer me this.If the Greek Cypriots blocked the settlement in 2004.Why do they enjoy ALL the benefits of EU membership,



Paul.



EricCrapton



Joined: 30/12/2010
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 09:04

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Message 36 of 41 in Discussion

Are you talking about benefits to the Greek Cypriot government or the ordinary person out on the street? Because there is much dis-content amongst the GC community on many problems bought on by entry to EU.



If a survey asked a GC what is the biggest issue since joining EU, the answer would in almost every case be the cost of liviing! Benefits are mostly commercial, export, import etc.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 11:19

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Message 37 of 41 in Discussion

Hi Paul



re msg 35



>>If the Greek Cypriots blocked the settlement in 2004.Why do they enjoy ALL the benefits of EU membership ?<<



Because the RoC is the only recognised govt...



Again, they have NOT had it there own way.. On accession the Green Line Regs were supposed to allow freedom of movement for all EU Citizens - no matter how they 'arrived' on the island.



This is why I'm really interested in what happens with Eric Crapton's case... I cannot see how his vehicles ( if complying with use on an EU highway) can be stopped from crossing - the port of entry should be irrelevant.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 11:22

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Message 38 of 41 in Discussion

re ErolZ



29-34



Thanks for the comprehensive answer, with links.. !



However, the EU, EC, ECHR are all hamstrung by the UN Security Council Resolutions - take for example the property issue - The fact that the TCs effectively voted to end their claim to be an independent state in Apr 2004 ( and that the GCs effectively voted to maintain it's de facto ( although not de jure) existence can't change the FACT that until the Sec Council resolution is overturned the RoC is the only recognised govt.



They ( the 'rump' RoC) have been holding up the distribution of aid processes - claiming they have jurisdiction.



Do the EU regret letting in part of CY join - OF COURSE.. but the deed is done, and it will take some major shift of policy from Russia / and China to bring about the mechanism to 'reward' TCs :(



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 20:31

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Message 39 of 41 in Discussion

Yes i was refering to trading benefits re- mess 36,Eric (great name by the way)



Cheers Mark re- mess 37.So even though the Tcs voted yes,they still get penalised.What about all the broken promises since 2004,



Paul.



erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
22/07/2011 20:54

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Message 40 of 41 in Discussion

MM as usual I think we agree on the main. I just do not accept that the UN resolutions are the reason why things like direct trade or even non stop flights have not happened. Of course they are the reason why the TRNC can not be recognised, but you can not be recognised and yet still have direct trade and even non stop flights. The issue is will, or lack of it from principaly the RoC and not a legal impediment. The EU comission clearly believed that direct trade between TC community and EU was possible despite the staus of the TRNC as a result of UN resolutions in 83 and 84 and without implying recognition of the TRNC. So did the UN SG. So do I.



philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
23/07/2011 15:46

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Message 41 of 41 in Discussion

The thing I find strange is that

most people want a solution except those

who have bought property both north and south



(conversation from my local kebab house )



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