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Throw away the history books

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newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 20:37

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Message 1 of 51 in Discussion

The leader of the orthodox flock in Cyprus will ask school children to throw away their history books if he feels they have been distorted.This has to be seen as good news.Not sure though if the primate has any clout though and his remarks will just fall on deaf ears,

Paul.



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 20:46

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The Greek Cypriots have been teaching a distorted history for decades in their schools. The problem is now the new president wants them to teach the truth and they are all up in arms against it , with the teachers saying they will refuse to tell the children about the many Greek atrocities carried out against the Turkish Cypriots.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 20:49

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karakum5c: "...with the teachers saying they will refuse to tell the children about the many Greek atrocities carried out against the Turkish Cypriots..."



Any credible references to this claim?



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:06

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Message 4 of 51 in Discussion

Try reading the Greek Cypriot newspapers of two/three weeks ago , all very well documented it was the lead story several times and main feature many times.



spook


Joined: 23/01/2008
Posts: 244

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:15

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Message 5 of 51 in Discussion

As credible as the references to the Turkish Cypriot atrocities againest the Greek Cypriots i would think



Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:28

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Message 6 of 51 in Discussion

When we were over in early October a friend came over from the South to stay with us for a couple of days and we picked her up and dropped her off at the border. She works part time in a school and in one of the many conversations she mentioned that the kids were given a distorted view of history and it has to change. She moved to Cyprus 5 years ago and had only been on a tour the North on a bus which went to the old city in Gazimausa and on to Nicosia. The tour guide was what you would expect in her comments of the North and the citizens. We took her all over and we had a dip in the sea on the Karpas where we were the only people on a beach that stretched for miles. She was in awe of the place and kept telling us "this is how Cyprus was 30 years ago when I first started to come to the Island. She was going to tell all her ex-pat friends and others about what she had seen first hand and how nice it was to be away from the greed of the south (advised we have a litttle in the north!)



Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:30

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Message 7 of 51 in Discussion

Cont. We are back over in May and we are going to be staying in the South for a few days and then she is coming over to the North with us for a week.



no1doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:39

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Message 8 of 51 in Discussion

Tiggy, I'd heard this too. Friends of ours live in Paphos and told us what they had heard from locals about the teachings in the schools. However I have not seen any evidence to support this therefore can't confirm the truthfulness of the story.



Superscousers


Joined: 25/10/2008
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:44

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Message 9 of 51 in Discussion

ptepike any credible refences to what?



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 21:51

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The Cypriot Education Ministry has proposed that "certain texts looking at Cyprus history from a different view point (not greek cypriot) could be discussed in classes." The teachers union president dismissed the texts as "provocative" and a "distortion of history". All the politicians backed the views of the union boss pronouncing the government policy "unacceptable" and of promoting the "perversion of history" Untill the Greek Cypriots decide to tell their people the truth, generations of children will grow up in ignorance as to what really happened prior to 1974.



Superscousers


Joined: 25/10/2008
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
07/11/2008 22:13

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Message 11 of 51 in Discussion

Newlad good posting ! Think the children should be taught about the history of Cyprus and given a balanced view on what really happened from 63 to 74 and how a certain race of people could be so cruel to there bretheren who lived with them.

Louie



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 03:31

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Message 12 of 51 in Discussion

The frightening thing is (forget the history) that GC children are still being brainwashed into hating T's and TC's.



newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 12:45

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Message 13 of 51 in Discussion

Pikey,

Atrocities have been commited by both sides over the years there is no denying that.But untrue stories both north and south only add fuel to the fire.Its time to draw a line and tell it as it really is.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 13:15

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Message 14 of 51 in Discussion

Newlad,



Absolutely. That's why I'm STILL waiting for a credible reference or two to karakum5c's vague claim about teachers via GC newspapers.



fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 14:01

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Message 15 of 51 in Discussion

i heard something about this about a month ago.



it can only be good for the children to learn the true history.



as for the church they are a very big player in the south.



No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 14:17

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Message 16 of 51 in Discussion

If it is true, that the truth is being distorted in childrens teaching books, then surely this is a positive move by the leader of the Orthodox Church.



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 19:14

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Message 17 of 51 in Discussion

Pike you obviously have access to the internet --use it ! Its a major story in the south and very easy to find.



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 20:03

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Message 18 of 51 in Discussion

karakum5c

Ref messages 3 and 14

Yep but you see that is an easy reply for our John. It means he does not have to do the work. But being such a clued up fellow you would have thought he would have been on top of it all anyway. But there again what with his kids and his various occupations and various homes and all the time he spends on the various bulleting boards, it really doesn't give him much time for fact finding.

But I guess we will all keep him reliably informed.

John you are in good hands on this board.

AJ



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 20:26

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Message 19 of 51 in Discussion

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:fy5H9sDInM8J:www.lse.ac.uk/collections/EPIC/documents/ICSpyrou.pdf+spyros+spyrou&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2



Some good evidence here by a learned scholar... I'm in no doubt that no GC newspaper would run with this. But then, why would they?



I'll leave you to make your own minds up about the interaction of the teachers with the children in their care....



The generation that will be learning to live with Turkishness in their midst....



I don't think so....



daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 20:25

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Message 20 of 51 in Discussion

my best mate mehmet is a turkish cypriot we have grown up together but he has never

said anything to me about greeks only that the south is theres and the north is turkish,but from what i read on cyprus 44 there is much distrust and animosity.

i have been to north cyprus many times now and all i see is peace.

daveb



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 20:44

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Message 21 of 51 in Discussion

Thanks for that link Grouch, one that I missed along the way. I have read other documents about the indoctrination of GC children and this one confirms everything else I have read.

But my guess is that John will now pooh pooh the author. Thats if he can afford the time to read the document what with all of his other 'interest's'.

AJ



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/11/2008 23:05

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Message 22 of 51 in Discussion

Groucho,



Do you really think that comes from a learner scholar or rather an undergrad doing a paper or dissertation. Only I think most academic supervisors would tell him to go back and get a much bigger and/or wide ranging sample. What were they like at your university?



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 00:08

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Message 23 of 51 in Discussion

alsancakjack



good guess.







musin

long live the kktc



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 10:04

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Message 24 of 51 in Discussion

Pike, I guess they were a bit like you... at Napier



I knew you would answer by questioning the academic qualifications of the guy because his conclusions do not suit your stance on this.. it's a technique of yours we have been able to observe for some years...



At least the guy doesn't claim to be an investigative journalist on the back of sitting in the Sheriff's Court and merely taking notes... he actually went out and observed without somebody else doing the work for him....



I didn't say he was a professor, I specifically said he was a scholar... how many more examples of GCs reinforcing age-old prejudices in the schooling system in the south do you want him to report on... one is I hope you will agree, one too many! But maybe not... it's not really your style either.



It's not as though he has some hidden agenda to portray his own people in the worst possible light and he at least speaks as he finds with ample crossreferences in the attributions at the end of his work.



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 10:06

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Message 25 of 51 in Discussion

Musin

Predictable is the word I would use.

Take care.

AJ



simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 10:06

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Message 26 of 51 in Discussion

oh suzanne , you do disappoint me , to make such a sweeping statement , you can't seriously believe that all the expats behave in the manner you have stated surely

regards , simbas



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 11:45

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Message 27 of 51 in Discussion

Groucho,



Seems like you never went to university if you can't recognise a poor study sample when you see one. If you'd been one of my students I could have put you right on methodology, but I think there's a bit of an age gap...



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 14:59

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Message 28 of 51 in Discussion

Pike, I'm not falling for that one, you always want someone else to do your leg work for you..



The size of the sample is not declared but it makes no odds, it is still alarming that those charged with helping the young to form opinion based on fact should reinforcing racial stereo-types based on pig ignorance.



The basis of this thread is that at last some people in the Greek Cypriot community realise that they have been ill-served by the bastardisation of historical fact being taught in schools and in so doing, deliberately demonising the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot communities..



You are no stranger to this...



Oh and by the way.... I certainly see a poor study sample in you!



bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 15:25

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Message 29 of 51 in Discussion

A very quick literature search would confirm that this is happening on both sides of the island. Indeed if you looked at some of the research coming from educational establishments and reports in Britain (Swann report) you will also see evidence of the same type of stereotypng as identified in many Cypriot reports and recent media.

Usually takes the form of Greeks are fountains of all knowledge and have enhanced civilisation and Turks are cruel and Barbaric and the sick man of Euprope.



In a post a few days ago the coffee shop gossip of a few villagers was referred to as "on the ground, uptodate and a reliable source" yet whenever a differing opinion is raised the same people use the arguement "not valid"

How can a teacher describing her experiences not be considered valid in contrast to the above observation?

Must be just a case of only batting for the other side.......me thinks.



ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 16:27

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Message 30 of 51 in Discussion

pp



Yesterday I watched the Lord Mayors parade in the City.



What was interesting was that they spent a lot of time interviewing Jack Petchie OBE.

He has donated m's from his business empire to support charities and underpriviledged children.



Was he an Alumni?



No. He left school at 13 with no qualifications, did menial jobs.



Sir Alan Sugar left State School with just 2 'o' Levels'.



Most Alumni I have encountered in life are highly educated in one narrow field and incapable of objectively encompassing views of people from other walks of life.



Recently I have been interviewing candidates for a well paid job in London. A few were Alumni, who were all so anally retentive, they ruled themselves out.



The one I have employed came from State School, with few qualifications, but has an open and flexible mind combined with a desire to succeed.





University may be a pathway to knowledge, but is not always a pathway to Social skills or understanding.



Rob



fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 16:59

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Message 31 of 51 in Discussion

come on suzanne

we aren't all that shallow!



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 17:35

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Message 32 of 51 in Discussion

Good post ROBnJO, the most constructive people in the world seem to be the more practical ones



hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
09/11/2008 17:47

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Message 33 of 51 in Discussion

Re message 34.

I don,t think the future of Cyprus is dependent on what expats think or feel and why should it be. Most right minded people would like to see a settlement to put an end to the doubts and uncertainty of the past thirty odd years, but it has to be a settlement that is fair to all Cypriots, not GC,s or TC,s but Cypriots.

The past will never be forgotten, that,s human nature, but at some point there must be forgiveness for the past so that there can be peace for the future.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 17:46

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Message 34 of 51 in Discussion

bradus: "Must be just a case of only batting for the other side..."



Those who know me on this BB will confirm my sexuality has never been in question.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 17:50

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Message 35 of 51 in Discussion

Groucho: "The size of the sample is not declared but it makes no odds, it is still alarming that those charged with helping the young to form opinion based on fact should reinforcing racial stereo-types based on pig ignorance."



But you still posted it as if it was a credible reference. The guy may have failed his course, for all you know. If his assignments were all of that standard then he probably did, unless standards were particularly low that year. We all know about demonising and racial stereotyping which is common in peasant or poorly educated communities as well as more developed places.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 17:52

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Message 36 of 51 in Discussion

ROBnJO: "University may be a pathway to knowledge, but is not always a pathway to Social skills or understanding."



I don't disagree with you on that one.



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 18:36

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Message 37 of 51 in Discussion

Pike,

Is it your contention that nobody can go to a school, observe the teaching and draw a conclusion based on the evidence thus gained? Do they have to visit all schools? I don't think so... one school doing this is still one school too many.



My point is that mis-teaching of history, no matter on which side it occurs, does not serve either community well and ill-prepares the adults of tomorrow with the necessary understanding, vision and tools to make a proper contribution to the process of healing the wounds....



As a parent here I can tell you that the history taught in the TRNC schools does not make heroes out of villains and does not dwell on some farsical view of Greeks as a pariah... So why is the obverse so difficult for the GCs



Yes they are proud of their martyrs... but not to the exclusion of truth...



Now let's here your view....



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 19:13

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Message 38 of 51 in Discussion

Groucho: "As a parent here I can tell you that the history taught in the TRNC schools does not make heroes out of villains and does not dwell on some farsical view of Greeks as a pariah... So why is the obverse so difficult for the GCs."



Three points. Has the TRNC made radical changes to what children used to be taught about the other side? Have you seen any TRNC school texts as they used to be? And what evidence have you that the obverse is difficult for the GCs (in a schooling context)? What was your alma mater, BTW?



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:13

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Message 39 of 51 in Discussion

My alma mater was St Benedict's Aldershot... I was more nourished in knowledge there than in any other learning institution in my life... Under the tutillage of Father Alfred Henry Simmons HCF FRSA ... a great theologian, life Master of the Society of the Holy Cross and a true friend until his untimely death.



I also went to Napier as you may remember... to study Computer Science in furtherance of my career... not to waste anybody else's time or money...



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:27

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Message 40 of 51 in Discussion

Yeh but Grouch have you got any factual evidence to prove this?

Thought I would get in before John.



Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:42

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Message 41 of 51 in Discussion

Can't prove I didn't waste anybody else's time or money... but who can?



I got my award from Sir Tom (Kwik-Fit) Farmer.



you can't get better than a Kwik-Fit fitter...



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
10/11/2008 20:48

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Message 42 of 51 in Discussion

dave,gavin

please don,take pike too seriously he does not own a pre74 property in north cyprus, its up to him to come clean.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 01:34

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Message 43 of 51 in Discussion

musin: "dave,gavin please don,take pike too seriously he does not own a pre74 property in north cyprus, its up to him to come clean."



Actually it's for you to prove your allegation. Shall we say a bet of 1000 to be handed over to the winner when corroborated proof (documentary evidence and witness statements) are provided? I'll even make it easy for you and meet you at your local London pub.



This is your big chance to show the BB what your word as London TC is worth. What's your answer?



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 22:05

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Message 44 of 51 in Discussion

this is your big chance to show the bb what your word as a london tc is worth .

whats your answer" ?



i drink at the dutch house every friday from 4pm to 9pm the address is tottenham high rd 500 yards from seven sisters station directly under the train bridge,any friday is good for me .

musin

long live the kktc



ps bring the money



BillyB


Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:21

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Message 45 of 51 in Discussion

Put me down for ring side seats please



No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:27

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Message 46 of 51 in Discussion

No ring side seats - standing room only



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:35

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Message 47 of 51 in Discussion

Musin,



Let me know what your productions (evidence) will be and your witness details. We will need an independent adjudicator and probably a separate room or area in the pub. I can give you notice now that my productions will be a TRNC kocan, RoC kocani, EU certificate of legal ownership, extract copy of named entry in TRNC land registry, extract copy of named entry in RoC land registry, scale map of plot from Department of Surveys and witness statements from TC citizen neighbours. W26Kay has kicked both our *rses at various times and is legally qualified so I think she'd be a good adjudicator, but I'll take suggestions.



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:42

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Message 48 of 51 in Discussion

Pike sounds all a bit iffy to me. If the Greeks say you have NO RIGHT to stay in your property i would tend to beleive them, after all they have the relevant paperwork.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:47

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Message 49 of 51 in Discussion

Not sure what you're saying, kara.



karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
11/11/2008 23:53

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Message 50 of 51 in Discussion

Your paperwork is not real --YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR A RIDE--the Greeks dont lie.



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
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Message Posted:
12/11/2008 00:08

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Message 51 of 51 in Discussion

Have you been sold GC property by some lying estate agent, is that what you're saying? If so join the queue down at the HBPG. You'll meet half the members on here.



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