north south divide what do you think

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 17:40

The way i see it is the world see's cyprus as a greek island and always will.But the island belongs to cypriots both turkish and greek.From what i can make out the turkish invasion was caused by one greek how tried to arrange a coup or something like that.Now i'm not going to lie for me the north is more attractive and because of this situation it's cheaper and i plan to take advantage of that like every other ex pat.I have nothing against turkish people or greek people or cypriots,but i will always see cyprus as one island one country and i think the world will to,i don't see north cyprus as turkey,i see the turkish flags there and it does not seem right or the new names like girne,the world will always see it as kyernia because that's what it is,when i was in paphos there were areas with mainly turkish cypriots with no problems so if turkey left the north why cant the island be free as one again,i dont really care but if i was a cypriot from either side i would be really pissed off.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 17:45

Why cant the uk un help cyprus come united again so all cypriots can be free on there own island.



long live the island of cyprus.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 17:49

Think you need to understand how it became a divided Island....



Plus names etc have always been changed, even countries....

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:04

"The way i see it is the world see's cyprus as a greek island and always will."

You're right there, even the BBC has on more than one occasion refered to "the Greek Island of Cyprus" - insulting for all (well maybe most) Cypriots I would say.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:04

Your right i dont know completely what happend and of course names change over time and from invasions,the world see's it that way for a reason and i agree,cyprus is one country remember if your not part of the soluation your part of the problem.



Ill be well aware im living in an illegally occupied part of cyprus.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:11

Cyprus is known as one of the greek islands same as crete and malta,rightly or wrongly this is a fact.



What i said unless you are blind is that cyprus is the cypriots island both turkish and greek,dont blame me if when cyprus is mentioned people say cyprus is one of the greek islands,that's just the way it is.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:23

Google holidays in the greek island's.



At the end of the day it should not be for turkey to decide or for ex pats,it should be for the cypriots on both side's but do they get a choice?



Dont get me wrong it would be best for me if it stays divided,but i'm saying surely you can understand why it's not seen as a country by the rest of the world,and if something is not done it will be stale mate forever.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:25

messag 4



sorry i miss read your message.

vincent1


Joined: 20/07/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:35

Message 6.



Malta a Greek island ?



I don't think so !

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:36

stelee7. ' the Turkish invasion was caused by one Greek '

There was a civil war between the Greek speaking Cypriots over the question of Union with Greece. Not the actions of one man.

The Turkish speaking Cypriots call the arrival of Turkish troops as intervention.

There is a book called The Genocide Files and that will give you a btter insight into the problem of Cyprus which started, not in 1974, in 1963.

For the island to be reunited there has to be a recognition of the wrongs committed by both sides and an agreement that for the future good of Cyprus then the Greek speaking Cypriots and Turkish speaking Cypriots have to work together for the good of all Cypriots.

It is very easy for we outsiders to pontifacate but we did not live here from 1963 until 1974. Those people who did live through that period are the only people who can decide if they can live with their neighbours.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 18:51

Just looked malta was a greek colony,still known as one of the greek islands even if it is not.



carndi thankyou for a proper responce.



Like i said i have no sides,but are you telling me that turkey will leave north cyprus and encourage a united island if things were sorted out,and they are only there from the kindness of there hearts.



If there are areas full of turkish cypriots living in the south with no problems along side there fellow greek cypriots to me that means the problem was a long time a go and the island can be united again,the greek cypriots go to the north to use the casinos without problems.



If the turks pulled down the flags and let cyprus be united could it work? or have they got other motives which are not the good of a united island.?



I know its not that simple,but how can cyprus ever be two countrys.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:04

I dont know if Turkey would leave North Cyprus or if the Turkish speaking cypriots would want them to go but at the end of the day both side have to sit down together with no preconditions and seek to find a way to co exsist for the future and for the future of their children.

I am 73 years of age and have travelled all over the world and believe that if left to the ordinary people life is not complicated. It is when the politicians get involved that problems start.

The people in the south are as nice as the people in the north BUT when fighting starts civilised people can turn into animals. On Boxing day 1963 I was sent here as a member of the British forces and seen a lot of what went on and even now can not comprehend the savagery that took place.

As I said earlier,the people who lived through that are the only ones who can say if they can live together.

I would like to think that they can and it will be in the near future.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:15

carndi



very well said.



They knocked down the berlin wall in the end,all that you talk about was a long time a go,but if the turkish cypriots did want turkey to leave,there would be an answer the question is would they do it.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:27

Malta a Greek colony?



less than a hundred years around 600 ad.



By that logic the UK is a Roman colony.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:42

stelee77. I was station in Berlin from 1975 until 1978 and went through Checkpoint Charley on a regular basis.

Had anyone said to me that the wall would come down 11 years later I would have laughed at them,so I would not try to forcast what the next 11 years will bring to Cyprus.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:48

And if someone had said to Turkey in 1959,that they would still be trying to join "the club" 52 years later.I dont think they would have bothered.For some reason,things seem to take just a little longer in Cyprus.Yavas,yavas,



Paul.

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 19:52

The world is changing all the time into a more multi cultural place than any of us could have ever imagined 20 years ago.



To try and define Cyprus or any place in the world on ethnic/racial lines is laughable.



The dinosaurs who beleive in some sort of racially pure nirvana should look around them at the rest of the world and fade quietly away into history.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:03

Newscoop



I have just seen malta crete and cyprus as a holiday deal for the greek islands,i could not care less if malta is or is not,it's not my logic is it.



Carndi



Well you have certainly lived then.



My question is would turkey ever let things be resolved,because there does not seem to be no beef between the cypriots anymore,do they want what is best for the natives or what is best for them now,what im saying is have turkish cypriots lost there say.

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:03

if it was not for the army boys,looking after all nationals on the north side,all the turkish cypriots would be dead or thrown out as refugees.

they would not harm the euros,as they would want to promote tourism.

and as this in 1960,was given as a greek/turkish island on a signed treaty,then i would say,keep it as it is.

its the young who will decide cyprus.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:12

Stelee maybe some history lessons might be of help. Malta is not a greek island, trust me i know, i lived there.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:14

Unfortunateley the big influx of mainland Turks,which will carry on increasing.Will eventually mean that Turkish Cypriots will become a very small minority indeed.That was one of the reasons why Talat was replaced by Eroglu.Just my opinion,



Paul.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:16

message 19



How can the young decide in the north under foreign rule?



It was all a long time a go,and both sides are freely moving from one side to another,will turkey actually let cypriots sort it out or have they claimed north cyprus there's for good.?

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:26

msg 19



well the young are mixing more and more,and calling themselves cypriots,not turks or greeks.

i think this is encouraging.

the 40 odd years is coming up,and soon it will be old memories.

but lets keep it the way it is now and over the next 30 years slowly eradicate the borders,currencys etc,and become one.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:29

Eventually (as always) the opposing sides will come to terms.



The CYPRIOT YOUTH do not want to know. They wish to live in peace.( GC TC !)



Are the issues so important? Ask the young people, the future of this Island.



The added impetus of carbon fuel deposits, make this island a treasure to be nurtured.



Please bury the hatchet, and make this island, the True Jewel of the Mediterranean.



wyn

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:37

nicola



Pathetic pointless post,i dont care if it is or not,i knew cyprus was classed as greek island by many,and when i checked to make sure a travel agent had a holiday to the greek islands which included malta.



compalin to the travel agents if you want.



perhaps you should get some reading lessons before you jump in with sarcastic comments you doughnut.

ranger5


Joined: 29/03/2011
Posts: 151

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:38

Stelee77, you really need a history lesson, and this is not the place to give it. Get some books on the subject as advised in an earlier response fron Carndi. Your postings are somewhat naive imho

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:44

Okay that all sounds about right but will the turks leave and let the cypriots get on with it at this stage.



For the cypriots and island to become one the turks have to go and the cypriot flag has to fly on the whole island.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:48

It sounds so easy Stellee,re-mess 27.Will it happen,i would have to say a resounding no,



Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:49

Oi Steel 77. Who are you calling a doughnut?



I live in The UK and pay my taxes here. That gives me the right, to have my say.



How do you qualify for ALL the UK benefits?



wyn

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:53

stelee77,



are you arguing that you personally want turkey to leave for the common good?



or that you are only saying that (through a process as yet unexplained)

turkey would perhaps leave anyway at some point, and this is best for cypriots?



and if you are not a cypriot how would such constitutional changes benefit you?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:54

I think! Newlads sunglasses are very fifties. This is 2011.



Think outside the box! Young Cypriots DO NOT want to know. Ask them?



They are Children of the Universe. Give Peace a chance! Vote for Unification, and future happiness.



wynyardman

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 20:57

More to the point;



who the f$%& is stelee?



forget the profile he writes like a seven year old.



And obviously geography and history are not his strongest subjects.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 21:11

ranger5



rubbish.



This is the truth what ever happened happened,It was a long time a go,i'm not talking about what happened back then,i'm talking about how things can be resolved and what is likely to happen,why is it some people can give there opinion and answer well,and others like you have to act all superior.



Look i lived in cyprus i can see that things have come a long way i have spoken to gc'c and tc's and know that there is not the problem there was.As someone has rightly pointed out the youngsters will decide in the end but what youngsters cypriot or turkish.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 21:17

Why not have a referendum on the future of Cyprus, with young Cypriots?



They despise the hatreds of the past. They know life on Earth is short.



The future is theirs. Why dont the Politicians ask the people that matter.



The Hydrocarbon deposits could give this Island a golden future. JUST ASK THEM!



Give Peace a Chance!



wynyardman

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 21:35

Newscoop



maybe you will find out who i am one day,so you judge people by there spelling do you,so you think because you write well you are smarter than me ,who am i,my name is steve i came on this site to get more info before my move which is soon,im a bit bored so i come on this site to see if i can see whats going on there and to work a few things out a bit like this thread,ive obviously hit a nerve with all these insults,perhaps the truth hurts i dont know.



message29



Are you drunk or just old,i never called you a doughnut,you doughnut,what are you saying about taxes you have lost me,i actually thought your first post was well done?lost me there.



I cant see the problem here some people have answered my questions well.



someone said the turks will not leave even if the situation was resolved,well there's the problem and that's why the world sees it as an illegally occupied state.I have no sides,this is just a non biased take on the matter.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 21:54

Wyn,



My dear old mam bought me those glasses.You have offended me,



Paul.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 21:55

Newscoop



Who am i who are you,you dont even have your location on your profile,are you actually in north cyprus because ill be happy to meet up with you for a beer,only say on this forum what you would say to my face.



Im just another ex pat ready to take advantage of the cyprus situation and the cheap prices in the north.



Well it sounds to me that things are unlikely to change in the near future,if turky will not budge.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 22:12

Hi,



I would love to think that the young cypriots both Greek & Turkish are fed up with the way things are but the reality is that the old hatreds are still there, especially in the south. They are taught in schools a distorted history of what happened in the 60's and 70's. If Turkey were to withdraw it's troops from the TRNC how long do you think it would take for the Greek Cypriots to come over the border demanding what were their land and properties back? Harrassing the Turkish Cypriots once again and who would help? The world would stand idly by again and watch.

The TRNC cannot do without Turkey, they pay the majority of wages and they bail the country out year after year. Turkey would be better sending officials to show government officers how to run the country properly instead of pumping money into it. I know that there is an embargo which doesn't help but sometimes I think that this is used as an excuse, to sit back and let Turkey foot the bill



The butlers wife

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 22:21

message 30



No im not cypriot.



Yes i was just thinking would it be best for the island if turkey left now.



But i was not thinking that was best for me.In the end it should be what's best for the cypriots.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 22:47

steele 77 Re Message 35.



It was posted in response to post 25.



You seem very agressive accusing people of being drunk.



If a solution to The Cyprus problem is to be found, it will be through quiet, reasoned negotiation.



Personal insults are rarely helpfull, as well as being against Board Rules.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 22:54

Msg 36,



I have no doubt that The Bold One, thinks you look good.



If I have offended you, you can buy the first pint. Mines an Efes.



wynge

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 23:42

wynge



okay firstly asking if you was drunk is not being aggressive,the message about meeting for a beer was someone else who really twisted my melon.



You have not upset me i dont think you could,if your in kyernia i would be happy to buy you a beer.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 23:49

stelee77.



I am in the UK, and I am not sure that I wish to drink with such an agressive person



HOWEVER In the interest of peace and godwill, I will stand you a pint at LA Resort and Hotel at Lapta from



9th to the 14th Sept. Ask for John Cooper



Give peace a chance!



wynge

PhilUK


Joined: 31/03/2010
Posts: 236

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 23:52

For what it's worth I've done a fair bit of reading up on the subject.

As far as I can see a big piece of responsibility falls down to us Brits.

We bought the lease for the island off the Ottomans, and in order to recoup the cost we taxed everyone heavily- this caused disquiet and an anti British feeling.

We then set the island adrift to sort it's own affairs out leaving a power vacuum, like we did in lots of other countries-especially after WW2 when nations were carved up with boundaries written on the back of serviettes over a good dinner by politicians.

look at the problems In Kosovo, Iran, Iraq,Afghanistan,Israel, Palestine, all had a big British influence over the years and were all dumped and left to get on with it when our empire retracted.

You reap what you so I think.

PhilUK


Joined: 31/03/2010
Posts: 236

Message Posted:
06/09/2011 23:54

I meant 'you reap what you sow'

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 00:01

the northern third of the island as ended up under turkish control because the turkish high command demanded it as far back as 1954 around the time turkey entered NATO.



the intercomunial clashes that started during the sixtys was the perfect excuse for what happend in the high summer of 74 , the turkish military got what it wanted.



isnt it strange that the then president of the U.S never stood in the rose gardens of the white house and demanded turkey leave northern cyprus ? you know the way the president did when sadam invaded kuwait .

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 00:33

Andy-f



Im glad you have just posted that because logic was telling me that this was the case.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 08:43

philuk. At the end of WW2 Britain was bankrupt and in debt to the Americans to the tune of billions and this allowed the Americans to call the tune whenever they wanted and this they did by ' suggesting ' to the UK that they should hand back Cyprus to the Greeks . The Greek lobby in the US is very strong and still is today.

As the EOKA campaign was on,Britain was glad to hand over subject to the military bases being retained.

The aggrement signed was never going to work BUT was drawn up by all sides involved not just the UK.

Lots of other countries were handed back and not just by Britain.



In Northern Ireland great strides are being made towards bringing the two sides together. Not yet perfect but each year there is a difference. One of the big steps being taken is ' Non denominational ' schools where both Catholic and Protestant children are brought together.

The history of Ireland will be taught ( hopefully ) without bias.

The children are the answer.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 09:49

"Catholic and Protestant Children"



I think you mean Children of Catholic and Protestant "Families" are brought together....

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 09:59

In many people's opinion, the only 'God' that the Cypriots [North & South] worship is 'materialism' - and they both have something in common in that each side wants more than the other!



The 'lip service' that both sides pay to their respective endemic religions is merely political, in order to preserve the 'status quo' - ad infinitum, if possible!

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 10:32

martin41. Bet you will sleep better at night having put me right on that.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 10:51

Carndi....I was merely pointing out that Children are not born Religious,they are indoctrinated ....if you take religion out of the equation Ireland's differences would not exist.....and many other religious feuds worldwide would disappear ....I have had some illness in my life,coughs,colds etc;but I have fortunately to date managed to avoid contracting Religion..

kengro


Joined: 05/08/2008
Posts: 9

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 11:22

The date of July 20, 1974 recollects an important milestone in history of Cyprus. The division of the island which can be perceived until present days has its roots in violent struggle between Greek and Turkish invaders. On 15 July, 1974 a coup d'état was organized by the Greek army forces against the then Archbishop Makarios and his government, with the aim of uniting the island with Greece. During the days following the overthrow, many Turkish Cypriot villages were razed and their inhabitants slaughtered by Greek Cypriots. 5 days later, Turkey responded to the massacre and on 20 July, 1974 the Turkish military intervention was launched, also known as Turkish Peace Operation. The troops of Turkey invaded the north of island to stop the bloodshed and to provide safety for Turkish Cypriots. Since the gruesome event of 1974, Cyprus has remained divided, one third of the north part being occupied by Turkish Cypriots and the two-third southern part of island controlled by Greek Cypriots.

kengro


Joined: 05/08/2008
Posts: 9

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 11:24

My previous post contains real facts regarding origins of the split island

Jimbo51


Joined: 24/09/2010
Posts: 79

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 12:14

If you can lay your hands on it then take some time out and read'The Genoocide Files' by Harry Scott Gibbons. for those of you that don't have a clear understanding about the Turkish liberation of 1974 it will become much more clear to you.In my opinion there are too many horrific memories for this island to be reunified and the border between north and south will be in place for many years to come.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 12:21

..all I have ever argued on this forum is that while there is clearly a "right" and a "wrong",

slotting real or imaginary events into the two neat pigeon holes, is a job for the individual



I take issue with those who claim to speak for a common good if I cannot believe it stelee

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 13:16

message 56



Im going to north cyprus to take advantage of the cheaper cost of living so the situation suits me.



If i try and see past my own selfishness do i believe that cyprus should be united for the good of the island and its natives,yes.



But i have never been in north cyprus long enough to see how things really are and to see how the cypriots feel,so my opinion right now is not concrete,its just the way i see it now.



Its just good to here other peoples opinions on the subject,because if i am making a tit of myself i would rather do it on here than when i'm in north cyprus,obviously i would avoid this subject like the plauge unless i knew the person well.



I dont even no how the cypriots feel about ex pats there,i have it all to learn.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 15:24

''Im going to north cyprus to take advantage of the cheaper cost of living so the situation suits me.''



Research aint your strong point then?

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 15:34

Kengro, I didnt know that many Turkish Cypriot villages were razed and their inhabitants slaughtered by Greek Cypriots after Makarios was thrown out but before the invasion a week later, can you give me a referance to this and the number killed. If its true then the invasion was justified.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 17:39

Stelee77

You have posted a thread that holds a lot of interest to many in both the RoC and in the TRNC and I hope that you, as someone who intends to move here have picked up on some valuable advice on reading material to grasp what happened prior to the Turkish Peace Keeping Intervention of 1974.



I do not believe the answer to any forth coming solution could be addressed by young Cypriots, they may be aware of recent Cyprus history but has the history they have been taught been disseminated accurately? (Msg 38) Many young people in the RoC are/have been taught that there was no intercommunal conflict prior to '74 and that the wicked Turks invaded Cyprus because of greed and no other reason.



Sadly, those Cypriots who do know the real truth from first hand experience are aged over 60 and in the main do not post on this or any other forum. If you are fortunate enough to gain the trust of such a person you may be told the truth of the events leading up to '74.



Good Luck.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 17:58

message 60



Thanks.



meassge 58



Dont understand your message,i have been on the net for at least two hours a day for the last two months comparing prices of north and south and looking at properties on both sides.



The north has a very low cost of living ?

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 18:40

It also has lower standards....You get what you pay for ...(.Sometimes).

Jimbo51


Joined: 24/09/2010
Posts: 79

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 11:19

Message 59 (Cobbler)

Get hold of a copy of 'The genocide files' All the facts and figures are in it in black and white.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 11:59

Thanks Jimbo51. If you have a copy can you tell me what it says about massacres in before the invasion. I'm going to see if Smiths have got a copy.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 12:01

The Genocide Files are a somewhat one-sided ( biased? ) account of what happened in Cyprus... One should also read books ( if for 'balance' only) like "Hostage to History: Cyprus from the Ottomans to Kissinger " by Christopher Hitchens





If one thing is 'certain' - nothing was in 'black and white' ... Cyprus and it's peoples have been used as a pawns.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 12:04

Cobbler - the book is available from Amazon.



Be warned; it is expensive

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 12:05

Hi Jeannie,



I've found both these books at a library in the UK.. special order..

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 12:08

Mark - well done; our local library is right next door to where I work and I never think to go in and order books. Criminal really, especially when so many libraries are threatened with closure.



Read the book many years ago. Perhaps I'll go along to the library and see if I can order it and refresh my memory.



Hope you're both well.



J

xx

InspironDream


Joined: 10/08/2011
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 12:44

@ steele



When did you see TC's in Paphos, do they live there?

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 13:03

69



I lived in paphos on universal.



There was a place near by that was called eroskipi but not spelt that way it started with a g.



Anyway when i was pissed up in a bar watching the football i was saying how rubbish the kebabs were to another ex pat and he told me a place in geroskipi run by tc's just up from the deals on wheels car showroom,which did it the same as the uk, so me and my girlfriend at the time started going there,dont get me wrong i did not see any gc's in there but everything was fine,they had a pool table in there and the the tc teenagers hanged around in there.



Cypriots are cypriots

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 13:28

mark message 65:





"cyprus and its people have been used as pawns"





yes very possibly, but the same thing happened to just about every small people in every period of history



so nothing especially unique about cyprus and its problems then, and no german/eu cavalry to the rescue



...the only real alternative is what is popularly known as "making the best of things" isn't it?

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 15:12

Thanks for replies, I'm going to get the book even if it is biasd. In the mean time can anyonne tell me about the massacre just before the invasion a Greek bloke told me they are all lies.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 15:23

The thing is each different author will see it in a different light,it's still just one guys way of looking at it,maybe it's time people should let by gones be by gones.Is it not the case that the way things are going there will only be cypriots in south,what a disaster that would be.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 15:32

"a Greek bloke told me they are all lies"

Well that's it then...

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:20

Groucho you obviosly know its not true then. So what is the truth how many were murdered before the invasion.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:28

stelee77,



looks like you are another of the "regrettable" brigade

that's turks of mainland origin gradually taking over the ascendency in north cyprus I suppose



before anybody else jumps in feet first, and assuming this is entirely "bad thing" I say:



a) a disaster for whom, exactly?

not from the viewpoint of the "new cypriots" who arrived over the past 37 years or so

not for their offspring who would be bound to see cyprus as home even if it was "aphrodite's island"

not for the security ...and prosperity of the north, however limited that may be



b) let bygones be bygones...bit difficult to do if you were a cleansed tc or greek cypriot "refugee"



c) one way out of what you would probably see as a problem rather than a solution ie a permanent

division of the island, is some form of peaceable compromise

rather than the sort of natural coming together you hinted at in other postings, which just aint on

anyone's agenda, whatever they may say

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:30

I forget the link to a long running thread where ErolZ and the TC who has lived in 'Oz [ who knows about Search Engine Optimisation ( who's details I lost - HINT!) ] discuss the events leading up to the invasion / intervention..



I believe there was NO massacre BEFORE the the Turks came [ The GCs were fighting EACH OTHER] and the horrible ones carried out by some GCs were AFTER the Turks walked out of the Geneva talks in August 74 and recommenced hostilities - making major territorial gains.



This is NO WAY implies that TCs were being badly treated by GCs pre July 74 - there had been several flare ups - esp in '67 where is took tough talking to get TR to back down from considering full scale intervention.



Howver, I can't say what would have happened if TR hadn't have come... as this caused the downfall of the Greek Junta and their puppet regime in Cyprus.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:33

sorry: (



This is NO WAY implies that TCs were [ NOT ] being badly treated by GCs pre July 74 .. Hope that's clearer...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:39

mark message 77:



interesting last two lines

....at the end of the day nobody can be sure what WOULD have happened 37 years ago, otherwise



in terms of political significance though the collapse of power-sharing after three short years in '63

LOOKING BACK may well have been the ticking time bomb that put cyprus on course for partition



just as the 2004 REJECTION of a possible compromise solution by greek cypriots, appears at least

to me to have made the task of the new generation of negociators a near-impossible one

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 18:51

A disaster for all cypriots ?



I'm not sure i guess it depends on how the native cypriots feel.



mainlanders can call themselves cypriots,but have they got cypriot values and views,is it not important a country keeps its idenity.



????

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 19:01

HOW can a 'mainlander' be CYPRIOT.. A TRUE Cypriot is born on an island ? ;))

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 19:02

Stelee please do not call me a doughnut, I am far sweeter, a bit like a jam doughnut lol,



MALTA IS N0T A GREEK ISLAND.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 19:11

82



very funny



6ms



this is my point.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 19:52

cobblet. Get a book called "The Death of Friendship" a Cyprus Memoir by Chief Matron Turkan Aziz. MBE, the life story of one of the most respected personalities to emerge from the brutal history of Cyprus.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 11:13

Thanks Woodspeckie but the book is far to expensive on Amazon. I looked there at what the readers said about Genercide Files, some of them say its badly wriiten with loads of spelling and grammar mistakes and he was paid by Turkey to write it for propagada, others say its all true.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0951446428/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_3?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&pageNumber=3

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 12:44

Cobbler. Do you go to North Cyprus if so visit the Ozankoy bookshop they have the books. Or you can download from you computer "Under the shadow of the Embargo" another interesting read.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 13:10

Stelee77.

You seem to be interested on the history of the troubles here in Cyprus/

In 1960 the British handed over Cyprus to both the TC’s and the GC’s with a set number of ministers from both sides and a rotating President – the Zurich treaty.

In 1963 the GC’s illegally ousted the Tc’s from government in their pursuit of union with Greece. They then pursued a reign of terror on the TC’s, eventually forcing them into enclaves. The killings continued right through to 1974 until the Turkish intervention. The GC’s have continually denied this, but the evidence is clearly there for anyone wishing to seek the truth. This of course is a loose sketch of events and not the full story, but I hope it will turn you in the right direction.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 13:23

Thanks for that



I dont disagree with you.



Just trying to work out the future for north cyprus and its cypriots.Over time will it become more turkey than cyprus if that makes any sense.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 17:27

Read up on Cyprus on the Uk parliament website and wikileaks, then you may understand.

Cyprus for Cypriots, it will never belong to Turkey.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 17:36

Yeah i think ill shut up now im boring myself.



Ill soon find out the crack when i'm there.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:34

Much has been said about the EOKA being supplied with weapons from Greece and also about Greek military coming here to train EOKA. Was this happening with the Turkish Cypriots ?



IN REALITY NO ONE WAS ASLEEP a book by ISMAIL TANSU details the history of the TMT, ( TURK MUKAVEMET TESKILATI ) Turkish Resistance Organization, from 1958 and the assistance it received from Turkey and which also had Turkish Military attached to it.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 02:52

message 77 stated:



"I believe there was NO massacre BEFORE the the Turks came [ The GCs were fighting EACH OTHER] and the horrible ones carried out by some GCs were AFTER the Turks walked out of the Geneva talks in August 74 and recommenced hostilities - making major territorial gains.



Can anyone confirm if this is true please? Were there no massacres of TC's prior to 74?

If not, how can one argue that Turkeys invasion was a rescue mission to save the lives of the TC? It would be a land grab? Can anyone give the names of the villages where TC's were massacred ?

steptoenoel


Joined: 27/04/2011
Posts: 116

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 03:55

Lots of recomendations for the genicide file.The cyprus Conspiracy also opens eyes.Sorry not remember who the author was.Sure easy found on amazon.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 10:24

Bradus, give over. There has been a continues stream of information since Cyprus 44 opened it's doors, of what the GC's try to cover up, the attempted genocide of the TC's. - It is a fact, live with it.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 10:28

steptoenoel. The Cyprus Conspiracy by Brendan O'Mally and Ian Craig is their theory with very little proof to back it up and I found that it could twist ' beliefs ' to fit and give credence to their story.

Other believers of this theory was Christopher Hitchings ,journalist.

If you read The Cyprus Conspiracy then you have to read some of the other books which try to 'de-bunk 'the beliefs written. One by Caroline Weinke ( may have spelled the name wrong ) does come up with quite a few points to prove her case. She believed that there was US and UK involvement but not to degree claimed in the O'Mally/Craig book.

Wibow


Joined: 10/07/2011
Posts: 97

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 11:28

Troodo



Well said.



Glad to hear that someone knows what they are talking about !!!!

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 11:51

Surely the UN has figures on the number masaccred, that would be a good source. What number are we talking about hundreds or tens of thousands and were any Greeks killed

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 12:51

message 80:



"...important that a country keeps its identity"



important to whom?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 13:28

Messages 96 and 94.



I want evidence. Not dismissal. I want the names of TC villages that were massacred prior to the 74 invasion. I am aware of the atrocities committed in August 74 to the TC and the villages concerned, this is easy to research being so well publicised. However these were committed in retaliation for the invasion.



I want to research the village massacres that occurred between 63-74 that people keep talking about but never name the villages.



It really is hard to explore this area because of all the propaganda from both sides. Some of the evidence quoted is from newspapers but when you then research the dated newspaper the evidence is not there. I seem to be going round in circles trying to obtain the truth.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 13:59

Bradus, Ive been digging around and looked at Britains war site, both sides were massacering each other when Britain was here, at the bottom of the page.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/ROH-2.html#intercommunal

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:18

Bradus. Have you read the book by Chief Matron Turkan Aziz MBE "The Death of Friendship" she can account for some of the massacres in December 1963 she was Matron of the Nicosia General hospital.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:19

Cobbler,



what an informative, interesting site but also very disturbing reading. Shocked with regards to the amount of GC killed by EKOA I didn't realise that it was much more than the TC that died during the early years.

Lots of small ambushes on by both sides but still not much about village massacres.

Thanks for the link, I will read in more detail and match with other evidence to get a better picture.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:28

Bradus, when you think the Turks were outnumbered 3 to 1 they put u a pretty good fight both sides massacred aqual numbers. Maybe UN has numbers on later fighting.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:28

Bradus.

Plenty of evidence if you go into Cyprus 44 forum achieves, Cyprus problem, with reference and GC contributors denials.

Not prepared to spend hours on this again just to be told it is TC propaganda, the facts speak for themselves.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:33

98



For the good of cypriots ?

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:41

Trodo, here's a fact I didnt expect to see. In 1958 The Greeks killed 53 Turks and the Turks killed 56 Greeks. Outnumber 3 to 1 that's impressive for massacre victims.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:54

Troodo,



You type Cyprus problem into the search box on Cypruss44 and what comes up is the "property problem" very little info on early conflict.



What you do read is mainly comments from British Buyers the favourite one being "what problem, it finished in 1974"



I simply want to draw conclusions by reading unbiased sources. Or learn from those that lived through this period.



You say the facts speak for themselves but surely you will admit that knowing what is fact is extremely difficult.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 16:17

Google The death of friendship Turkan Aziz, click on "Under the shadow of Embargo", there you can either read the content or print it. I printed it but there are 74 pages.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 17:01

There is a book called The Genocide Files and that will give you a btter insight into the problem of Cyprus which started, not in 1974, in 1963.

Bradus. Have you read the book by Chief Matron Turkan Aziz MBE "The Death of Friendship" she can account for some of the massacres in December 1963 she was Matron of the Nicosia General hospital.



I have both books, if anyone wants to borrow them, I'll be back in 4 weeks.

Have one or two personal things to attend to but they shouldn't take long.

Give me a call, on here.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 17:13

msg 108: Google The death of friendship Turkan Aziz, click on "Under the shadow of Embargo", there you can either read the content or print it. I printed it but there are 74 pages.



A tip WS, print it on ricepaper, when you've finished with it, throw it in a pan wi' a tattie an' a bit o' mince. mek a pie, luvly.

How are you keeping? well I hope. apologise for anything that caused offence the last time we "sparred"

Next time you're over here, Gimme a bell, her 'n I would be honoured to meetyer.



T

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 22:18

Bradus, its not easy to find reports that dont support one side or other but i found this and it is writen by people from all over, there is loads of it.



"The period from 21 December 1963 to 10 August 1964 was the most violent phase of the Cypriot conflict. Both communities estimate that several hundred of their members were wounded. In addition, several hundred were kidnapped and temporarily held hostage until exchanges were arranged. Official records show that 191 Turk-Cypriots were known to have been killed and 173 are still missing and now presumed dead. On the Greek-Cypriot side, 133 are known to have been killed and 41 are still missing and presumed dead. It is probable, however, that the figures for Turkish-Cypriot deaths include some who were killed accidentally by their own hand or by other Turk-Cypriots. Greek-Cypriot deaths are probably understated."



http://web.archive.org/web/20060810182530/cyprus-conflict.net/Table+of+Contents.htm

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 22:27

Thank you for the link. However much has been reported about the Turkan Aziz, The Death of Friendship.

I have read several sources the most relevant being Martin Packard's more recent version. If you remember he was supposedly the one given the job of investigating what happened to the TC patients and completing the report. It would appear there is some truth in this account but also some not so truthful events too.



I have the greatest respect for M. Packard's accounts of Cypriot history as he is one of the few sources that appears to describe events truthfully and worked hard to get to the truth.



For a slightly different version you might want to read this.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/may/03/balkans5

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:09

I've got Packards book, I suppose I should read all of it. It seems to me that both sides did terrible thing to each other. The Turks got the worst of it because they were outnumbered. I dont think we can rely on Greek or Turkish writers to be not biased.